Rhytenow
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Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
I just exported my first wav file for mastering and it's 143 mb. Is this normal? I exported 24 bit with no dithering. In my mix I had about 15 or so tracks active. I'm just trying to make sure I"m not doing anything wrong. After I export the wav file to bring it back up for mastering I just use the sonar Import function? When I finish mastering the song and export to 16 bit and use dither, will this reduce the file size?
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slartabartfast
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 19:25:16
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Once you export to a wave file the size of the original project is irrelevant. Dithering is also irrelevant and adds nothing to the size of the file. The size of a wave file can be roughly calculated by (bits/sample x {2 channels for stereo} x samples/second x seconds of music)/ 8 bits/byte. A 16 bit file will be 16 bits/24 bits = 0.667 or 2/3 the size of the same file with 24 bit sample size. A rule of thumb for 16 bit 44.1K sps sound is that you need about 10.5 megabytes per minute of data. If your song is not very long, then listen to it to be sure you have not encoded a long period of silence at the end. Silence in digital audio requires just as much data (lots of zeroes) as sound.
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Rhytenow
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 19:27:54
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Thanks so much slartabartfast! How would you suggest I open up the project after I've saved it as a wav file?
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Boydie
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 19:30:40
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How long is the song?
The bit depth is 24bit but what is the resolution - 44.1kHz, 48kHz, higher?
These factors will affect the file size
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jude77
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 19:37:47
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As long as you saved your original project as a CWB or Normal file you should just be able to navigate to it under "Cakewalk Projects" and open it back up. If, on the other hand, you only saved it as an exported WAV file just load that back into SONAR and look at the WAV form (or listen to it) to see if there is any silence at the end. If there is just edit it off and export the file again.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 19:54:18
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Rhytenow
Thanks so much slartabartfast! How would you suggest I open up the project after I've saved it as a wav file?
Exporting a wav from your project does not affect the underlying project in any way. Open it up as you normally would, unless you haven't saved it! To listen to your export, do a File > Import
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Rhytenow
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 20:11:28
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Thanks so much guys, this is very helpful!
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Rhytenow
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 20:26:07
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Songs is 3 minutes long. 44.1 kHz
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chuckebaby
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/10 21:27:23
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That seems high.
A typical 24 bit 3 min song is anywhere from 50 to 60 MB.
Sample rate higher ? that's a totally different story. Have you right clicked on the file to make sure it is 3 mins ?
It may have silent space at the end for another 6 mins.
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Rhytenow
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 01:25:25
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Thanks Chuck. I checked and there was a long amount of silence. File is now about 53 mb.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 03:38:28
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Rhytenow
I checked and there was a long amount of silence. File is now about 53 mb.
This is very easy to do with SONAR. You have to make sure the range is set properly on the ruler at the top of the tracks, but those markers keep moving around as you select tracks. IMHO, this is the number one most annoying aspect of SONAR. I have used SONAR a long time and I still ruin about 10% of my renders because they are either way too long or else I have chopped off part of the song or not included all the tracks. SONAR makes you select everything manually in the most tedious way imaginable. They refer to it as a "Flexibility feature". I refer to it as a PITA.
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Boydie
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 07:14:54
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I disagree and always prefer to go through the "select all and then select a portion on the timeline" approach
For every project I insert a "select from here" marker at the beginning and a "select to here" marker at the end
This ensures consistency between different exports and allows me to fine tune exactly where the exported file will play from and where it will stop (e.g. Ensuring there is enough space for a fade out or for reverb/delay tails to naturally dissipate)
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cparmerlee
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 13:40:27
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Boydie
For every project I insert a "select from here" marker at the beginning and a "select to here" marker at the end
What good does that do? You still have to go back in EVERY ^%^%$^%#^$% time you export and set the ruler range. If I go to the trouble of setting a song beginning and ending marker, why doesn't the program simply use those markers automatically every time I export? That's what StudioOne does and it makes perfect sense. It is very unlikely you will want to change the start and end points once you have set them for a song. And why is it necessary in SONAR to select every track every time you export? If I didn't want the track included in the export, I would mute it? This behavior seems insane to me, or at least ridiculously tedious. The export ought to be "what you hear", regardless of which tracks happen to be selected. And of course, every time you go to select your tracks, that CHANGES the ruler, so then you have to go back and change your ruler range, but make sure you don't de-delect any tracks when you do that. Catch-22. It always feels to me like somebody at Cakewalk in enjoying messing with me. I have been doing this since SONAR 7 and I still end up with exports that have the extra 10 minutes of silence (such as the OP) or exports missing important tracks. And that latter mistake can very easily go undetected. I have gotten to the point of publishing material (electronically) with tracks missing and had to pull it back. Very embarrassing and I do not take responsibility for that. That is crappy software design. I don't buy the "SONAR has always worked this way -- you must conform" argument. It is a crappy design, plain and simple. Seriously, this is the kind of thing that makes people say StudioOne is a lot easier to use. There are a lot of things that SONAR does very well. But stupid things like this drive new users away.
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...wicked
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 14:47:33
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cparmerlee
And why is it necessary in SONAR to select every track every time you export? If I didn't want the track included in the export, I would mute it? This behavior seems insane to me, or at least ridiculously tedious. The export ought to be "what you hear", regardless of which tracks happen to be selected.
Well, some projects are not songs. What about doing library creation work? Or scoring where you want to isolate a cue? I love being able to export parts of projects for various reasons. And it's pretty simple to CTRL-A before you export to get the whole project. Of course if you use automation you can sometimes get that weird node that makes your song have twenty minutes of silence on the end. Sigh. An END marker would be great, or even a regular marker you can select to for this purpose. But, it's easy enough to chop it off in the Mastering phase.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 15:09:25
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Rhytenow
Thanks Chuck. I checked and there was a long amount of silence. File is now about 53 mb.
Ya.. I've never done that before. How do you think I knew what was wrong 
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chuckebaby
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 15:18:36
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cparmerlee
Boydie
For every project I insert a "select from here" marker at the beginning and a "select to here" marker at the end
What good does that do? You still have to go back in EVERY ^%^%$^%#^$% time you export and set the ruler range.
Ya Parmerlee has a good point. But I also agree with Boydie. I've been doing it this way since Cakewalks inception. Once im ready to export I either select the range in the time line or Use the "From now/Thru here" So what I do is- 1- Hit CNRL+A to select all tracks 2- Choose my "From now/Thru here" points 3- Go to the Export/Audio dialog menu. (I wont even go in to the possible confusion in the Export dialog menu ) Final point: Cakewalk needs a Point A/Point B marker for project start/end. Maybe like a purple marker or a photo of a pink unicorn, so we can select Permanent start/end points
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cparmerlee
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 17:44:11
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☄ Helpfulby SuperG 2017/09/13 00:35:43
...wickedit's pretty simple to CTRL-A before you export to get the whole project.
No, that resets the time line. If you do Ctrl-A, you then must go back and fix the time line if you want to leave room at the end of the some for effects tails. And if you aren't careful when you do that, you deselect tracks. Catch-22. I am all for flexibility, but the DEFAULT behavior should be the simple case that is what most people do with their projects. IMHO, if you do export and don't select any options, the export should automatically include all clips (what you hear) and the time line should run from the beginning of the earliest clip to the end of the latest clip, plus a tail length that can be saved as a preference (say 3 seconds as default.) Alternatively allow the user to set explicit song start and song end markers that don't move around randomly. That is the Studio One method. Set it once and all your exports will be good. Another solution is as Audacity does it, allowing you to set up multiple market ranges to delineate individual songs within the recording. Again, the markers never move unless you explicitly move them. That method works great for mixing a whole program. When you are done, you do an Export Multiple Tracks (or whatever the menu item is) and Audacity automatically exports each song you marked on the time line. For anything else, there ought to be an "Export Special" or "Advanced" mode. And I would use that on occasion. It seems to me SONAR is forcing the most complicated process on every user. The default behavior should be simple, reliable and intuitive. I am all for making SONAR more friendly and inviting through improved start screens, but lets fix some of the other more substantial turn-offs. I love working with SONAR, but I just cannot recommend it to anybody I collaborate with because it is too arcane and frustrating to new users. As long as I am dreaming, it shouldn't always be necessary to do an export at all. If SONAR has a separate mastering mode, then maybe all I have to do during the mix is mark the song begin/end, and the mast3ering mode will automatically pull the mix into the mastering session for me. These are the kinds of things that will make the DAW more inviting to new users.
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bitflipper
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 17:51:35
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I've been lobbying for years for CW to implement "start of song" and "end of song" markers. These could be easily implemented using the existing marker system, by adding a flag to the marker object and making it an option when exporting to automatically select the data between those markers.
In the meantime, I use Boydie's method. It requires three extra keystrokes before every export, but it works well. It lets me be precise about where the song ends, which isn't necessarily the place where the last event is located. Sometimes you need to add another second to avoid chopping off reverb tails. And yes, sometimes you do want to intentionally leave some silence before the beginning or after the ending, so it's not as simple as "export what you hear". And yes, you do sometimes want to export specific tracks rather than the whole thing (see "stems").
It's not "crappy software design". It's a design that allows everyone from the casual user to the professional to adapt it to their own needs. The tradeoff, however, is that flexibility always necessitates a learning curve. You can design your house with MS Paint or with AutoCAD; one is easy to pick up, the other requires effort. But both are excellent designs.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 17:55:45
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bitflipper
It's not "crappy software design". It's a design that allows everyone from the casual user to the professional to adapt it to their own needs. The tradeoff, however, is that flexibility always necessitates a learning curve.
Great point and I totally agree. Sometimes having flexibility at our fingertips requires a little more work (A few more clicks). It might take a new user a few times to adapt to the way the start and end points are set in Sonar but I can honestly say once I learned how to do it years ago, I've never had a problem with it since.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/11 19:08:35
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chuckebaby
Sometimes having flexibility at our fingertips requires a little more work (A few more clicks).
It is crappy design. The extra clicks should be for advanced functions. The extra clicks should not be forced on everybody when simple defaults will get the desired results 80% of the time. That's a basic principle of UI design. Make the simplest, default path the one that covers the largest number of cases. If you really need to allow for other boundary cases, set them aside in an "advanced" view so the new user immediately understands he/she probably doesn't have to deal with that while learning the basics. I don't make this stuff up. There is a science behind UI design, and programs as old as SONAR often struggle with that, mainly because of resistance from an old user base.
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35mm
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 00:32:25
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Hmmm I do agree. Maybe not crappy software design but a UX design concern. I would like to see the whole export process get an update. I suspect 99% of Sonar users, 99% of the time they do an export are intending to export the entire mix apart from tracks that they have muted and they intend to export the entire duration of the audio including tails, but are not interested in exporting silence beyond that.
So taking the above logic, perhaps the export system should default to those settings despite what tracks are selected or what time period is selected. Then for exports that require something more advanced, the user can set those options, and select tracks and time accordingly.
So many new sonar users get completely confused by this and I imagine some get put off by it.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 02:05:11
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35mm
I suspect 99% of Sonar users, 99% of the time they do an export are intending to export the entire mix apart from tracks that they have muted and they intend to export the entire duration of the audio including tails, but are not interested in exporting silence beyond that.
I don't know about 99%, but certainly a very large majority of the time. Plus, I often end up exporting the song 5 or 6 times. It is senseless to have to go through this same rigmarole each time. Just export it the way I did it the last time, for Pete's sake. I do think it makes perfect sense to allow the user to save a preference for default head and tail length. That is to say, the export would start hhh seconds before the first clip and would end ttt seconds after the last clip. I would typically have a 1 second head and a 4 second tail just to make sure my verb tails aren't chopped off.
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bitflipper
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 02:18:05
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Before you start lecturing me on UI design, cparmerlee, you should know that that has been my profession for over 40 years.
I agree, advanced features are usually best hidden until needed. Being able to specify which parts of a project to export is not what I'd consider an advanced feature. It's pretty basic.
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michael japan
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 03:46:13
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This is amazing. I was just thinking, after all these years, to ask about this. I do the same as many above - control A, mark the start of file, mark the end (making sure the tail is there.) And yes, have many times had the long silence at the end because I neglected to do so. Though you can usually tell. If the export engine is sluggish 9 times out of 10 I have forgotten to mark the end. It's not really that big a deal, though I was wondering why some songs do this and some don't. I used to thin k it was because I had some activity way down the timeline (sometimes I save takes, bloopers, etc. and move them 100 measures after the track finishes.) I don't really know why. Maybe someone does.
The only time it is a real bother to me is for instance at the end of a very long project (70 songs to send the raw data tracks to a client) I had to make sure I had the right ending so a bit of a pain. But honestly, not a big deal - unless of course you send it to a client and it has a minute of empty space at the beginning. But this rarely happens as I have been using Sound Forge pretty much since it's beginning and I always put my mixes in there to check clipping, statistics, fades, etc.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 03:49:18
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bitflipper
Being able to specify which parts of a project to export is not what I'd consider an advanced feature. It's pretty basic.
I don't think most DAW users would agree with that, although most SONAR users probably would. Many here have periodically expressed frustration with why SONAR continues to be regarded as being in a tier way below Protools, Cubase, and most importantly now StudioOne. I am suggesting the user experience is the primary factor why StudioOne has been so well received. And frankly, if this continues, i expect it really will be increasingly difficult for Cakewalk to continue. Presonus really should not be underestimated, nor should its consequences on Cakewalk's future business. There were great expectations for extending the user base by offering a Mac option, but that has been abandoned. My advice to the company would be to work very, very hard on the initial user experience, even if that offends long-term SONAR users. Not to get into a pedigree fight, but my first programming was on a Data General Nova in 1970. The "UI" was paper tape. I graduated to an IBM 360-20 whose "UI" was a breadboard, so we have made some progress since then. I have not concentrated on UI design over the years, but I have consulted on many software business plans, so I do have a little knowledge of what it takes to reach new markets. SONAR is making a little progress in that regard, but the turn-offs are still too prevalent, IMHO.
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michael japan
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 03:49:35
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Rhytenow
Thanks so much slartabartfast! How would you suggest I open up the project after I've saved it as a wav file?
If you are going to be doing a lot of mixing, I would suggest getting a dedicated editor like Sound Forge, Samplitude, Wave Labs or I am sure people here have other suggestions. I have only used Sound Forge and would be lost without it.
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michael japan
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 03:55:27
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cparmerlee
bitflipper
Being able to specify which parts of a project to export is not what I'd consider an advanced feature. It's pretty basic.
I don't think most DAW users would agree with that, although most SONAR users probably would. Many here have periodically expressed frustration with why SONAR continues to be regarded as being in a tier way below Protools, Cubase, and most importantly now StudioOne. I am suggesting the user experience is the primary factor why StudioOne has been so well received. And frankly, if this continues, i expect it really will be increasingly difficult for Cakewalk to continue. Presonus really should not be underestimated, nor should its consequences on Cakewalk's future business.
There were great expectations for extending the user base by offering a Mac option, but that has been abandoned. My advice to the company would be to work very, very hard on the initial user experience, even if that offends long-term SONAR users.
Not to get into a pedigree fight, but my first programming was on a Data General Nova in 1970. The "UI" was paper tape. I graduated to an IBM 360-20 whose "UI" was a breadboard, so we have made some progress since then. I have not concentrated on UI design over the years, but I have consulted on many software business plans, so I do have a little knowledge of what it takes to reach new markets. SONAR is making a little progress in that regard, but the turn-offs are still too prevalent, IMHO.
Good to see we have so many qualified people on this forum. On the other hand, to show you how much some users like Sonar, I have a friend who I hire for all of my sessions (professional drummer, producer) who was going to get a Mac Pro for while he is touring which is often, but now is between a rock and a hard place because he is such an avid Sonar user/lover and found out there will be no Mac version. Of course there is logic, Cubase, Pro-Tools and other software but he wants to stick with Sonar. Many of us are very happy because our main concern is the creative flow and getting a lot done professionally in a short amount of time, and Sonar allows us to do that.
Windows 10/64 bit/i7-6560U/SSD/16GB RAM/Cakelab/Sonar Platinum/Pro Tools/Studio 1/Studio 192/DP88/MOTU AVB/Grace M101/AKG Various/Blue Woodpecker/SM81x2/Yamaha C1L Grand Piano/CLP545/MOX88/MOTIF XS Rack Rack/MX61/Korg CX3/Karma/Scarbee EP88s/ Ivory/Ravenscroft Piano/JBL4410/NS10m/Auratones/Omnisphere/Play Composers Selection/Waves/Komplete Kontrol
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michael japan
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 03:57:37
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cparmerlee
35mm
I suspect 99% of Sonar users, 99% of the time they do an export are intending to export the entire mix apart from tracks that they have muted and they intend to export the entire duration of the audio including tails, but are not interested in exporting silence beyond that.
I don't know about 99%, but certainly a very large majority of the time. Plus, I often end up exporting the song 5 or 6 times. It is senseless to have to go through this same rigmarole each time. Just export it the way I did it the last time, for Pete's sake. I do think it makes perfect sense to allow the user to save a preference for default head and tail length. That is to say, the export would start hhh seconds before the first clip and would end ttt seconds after the last clip. I would typically have a 1 second head and a 4 second tail just to make sure my verb tails aren't chopped off.
this is a good idea. I would like that.
Windows 10/64 bit/i7-6560U/SSD/16GB RAM/Cakelab/Sonar Platinum/Pro Tools/Studio 1/Studio 192/DP88/MOTU AVB/Grace M101/AKG Various/Blue Woodpecker/SM81x2/Yamaha C1L Grand Piano/CLP545/MOX88/MOTIF XS Rack Rack/MX61/Korg CX3/Karma/Scarbee EP88s/ Ivory/Ravenscroft Piano/JBL4410/NS10m/Auratones/Omnisphere/Play Composers Selection/Waves/Komplete Kontrol
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chuckebaby
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 16:21:34
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cparmerlee
Not to get into a pedigree fight, but my first programming was on a Data General Nova in 1970. The "UI" was paper tape. I graduated to an IBM 360-20 whose "UI" was a breadboard,
And that might be an even better reason to step back for a second and say... "Do I really know what this generation wants for advanced features" ? Face it, we are clueless. "US" yes speaking for myself as well, knows nothing about this newer generation and how they work. The only thing we have over them is.. "Common sense" from years of making mistakes. The only changes or suggestions I make are born out of the way I work and that my friend might not be how others work. That's why I Always hesitate to criticize. You can say, this is a crappy design all you want but get real.. the only thing you know 100% is that it may be a crappy design for you and only you.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Cactus Music
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Re: Exported First Wav File for Mastering and the File is 143 mb! Is this normal?
2017/09/12 16:37:49
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I think the problem comes from trying to do two steps at the same time.
Mixdown = Balancing of the mix and export to a stereo file.
Mastering = Top and Tail and polishing of the stereo file.
So for me it's not an issue because I top and tail during mastering.
I do this in a Wave editor but pretty simple to top and tail a stereo track in Sonar with slip edit.
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