ping
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/05 03:02:41
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Putting the singer at ease and making them comfortable with their own voice is, to me, way more important to the quality of the record than anything else.
Yeah, I agree with that 100% If you make the singer struggle too much the performance evaporates into thin air and relationships in studio break down In the end it doesn't matter how you do it, just getting it right is what matters Cheers AF
If I knew then what I know now!
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serauk
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/05 09:39:46
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just to add my 2 cents in (and just because I haven't posted in a while, don't want ya'll to forget how dumb I can be!)
I agree with Yep on this - you want to record reality but it helps the performance a lot if you make it sound good to the performer - and I'm not just talking about the vocalist, although they are the ones that are more sensitive to it...
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Brett
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/05 11:56:16
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Nothing that hasn't been said here already.... I use some mild compression for my singer because her mic technique totally sucks, and a very low gating because the room is a bit noisy, the gate helps our ears a bit but opens as she takes a big breath before each phrase. I have dbx 166A which is very transparent. I find that trying to get her to use the mic properly puts too much performance presurre on her.
Brett
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cryophonik
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/05 13:31:52
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ORIGINAL: Brett
...and a very low gating because the room is a bit noisy, the gate helps our ears a bit but opens as she takes a big breath before each phrase...
This is also an interesting and relevant topic. Brett - is the gate on the recorded track as well, or just in the singer's mix? I sometimes gate my singer's headphone mix if she requests it, but I never gate the track while recording because it sometimes cuts off transients, tails of sustained notes, etc. Any gating I do to a track happens after it has been recorded.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/05 17:33:38
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ORIGINAL: cryophonik
Just to be clear in case you haven't been reading my posts very closely, I am talking about using some light compression to control peaks when recording vocalists with poor mic technique. ok, let's review: quote:
ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
"I could easily compress the vocal in their headphone mix only." [yep]
You guys listening to that? That's a really good idea and a nice compromise. this next bit is you. i've bolded some appropriate sections: Why would you want to do this? The idea behind compressing the vocals during tracking is to control the dynamic range of the recorded track. If you were to only compress the headphone mix (i.e., not the recorded take), you would likely have the opposite effect, especially with less experienced vocalists who don't know when/how much to back off a mic. In other words, the vocalist may perceive that he/she is not singing loud enough during louder passages when the compressor kicks in and try to belt it out even more to compensate. Now, not only would the dynamic range of the recorded track be all over the map, but the tone/pitch quality of the vocals may suffer as well. now back to what i said: ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
if the vocalist can't hear themselves they will suck...if piping the raw vocals back to the vocalist gets you a better take faster than them actually hearing themselves then do that. somehow though i doubt that's the case.
It's not a matter of them hearing themselves - I have never NEEDED to compress a headphone a mix for a singer to hear him/herself. If your singer is having trouble hearing him/herself sans compression, then you need to check your signal path and/or buy a better headphones, headphone amp, and/or preamp.
i can hear myself just fine if i crank the sound up, but then i drown out some important parts of the mix (vocals can cover up a fairly large frequency range). so i turn up the instrument mix, and now the vocals are too soft. doesn't matter that my ears are bleeding, i still may not be able to hear the vocals over the guitars and drums and strings and bass and whatever else is in there. when they are loud enough to hear (in relation to the mix) the mix itself may be too quiet and pitch and rhythm problems ensue while straining to figure out the key and the groove. personally, i don't use compression while tracking because i don't feel like doing input monitoring (i hate latency issues and dodge them by using a mixer) and i don't feel like paying for a hardware compressor. unfortunately i end up cranking the headphones quite a bit so i can hear everything, and it's quite fatiguing. but i'm just a hobbyist so no real harm done. midiroom, Joe Bravo, and Yep provide some very valid reasons for using compression in headphone mixes and, admittedly, I've been known to do the same, but your implication that "piping the raw vocals back to the vocalist" cannot equate with "them actually hearing themselves" is absurd. this is absurd: I do just the opposite - my singer gets no compression in her headphone mix and I encourage her to pay attention to her own levels and try to keep it consistent - can't do that if it's being squashed by a compressor. If her ears start to bleed, she'll know it and she'll back off the mic . Either way, I get a (lightly) compressed vocal take. rather than giving the singer an environment where they feel comfortable, you give them a singing class. i suppose you charge by the hour too. this is essentially the opposite of what yep, joe and midiroom were saying.
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Brett
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 00:49:23
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ORIGINAL: cryophonik
ORIGINAL: Brett
...and a very low gating because the room is a bit noisy, the gate helps our ears a bit but opens as she takes a big breath before each phrase...
This is also an interesting and relevant topic. Brett - is the gate on the recorded track as well, or just in the singer's mix? I sometimes gate my singer's headphone mix if she requests it, but I never gate the track while recording because it sometimes cuts off transients, tails of sustained notes, etc. Any gating I do to a track happens after it has been recorded.
The recorded track, your points are valid, you have to be careful. The release time is very long, not sure how long but it's set at maximum which is over a second, and the threshold is very low something like -45db. If used properly, the dbx stuff are very transparent. Brett
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cryophonik
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 01:34:43
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I don't know where you're getting your assumptions from jack, but in my defense: ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
rather than giving the singer an environment where they feel comfortable, you give them a singing class.
Who said my singers weren't comfortable? And what's wrong with trying to improve their technique? The singers I work with are very good friends of mine and also very talented, intelligent, and capable individuals who will tell me if they don't like what they're hearing. We work together as a team. They are very familiar with compression and we have tried all sorts of headphone mixes with/without compression, gating, effects, etc. until we've found what works best for each singer. Sometimes that means some light compression and/or gating, sometimes it means none. ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
i suppose you charge by the hour too
I don't charge at all - I'm a serious hobbyist with a nice home studio. I am also a long-time performing/studio musician and live audio technician, but I gave that all up for a much more lucrative and satisfying non-music career and family. Now, I work with a few female vocalists, one with a lot of recording experience, the others with relatively little. We work together on songs and we do what we need to do to give them a comfortable monitoring environment while attempting to get a good recording. We also push ourselves to improve all of our techniques at every opportunity. They usually do not like a lot of compression in their headphone mixes because it either sounds unnatural to them and/or they view it as a band-aid approach (as do I) and would rather learn better technique to control their dynamics. Regardless, jack - I've obviously offended you with my views, responses, approach, or something. Sorry about that - I didn't realize this was such a sensitive issue for you and I sincerely apologize. However, I will continue to record with the methods that work best for us and that's all I have to say on this matter.
post edited by cryophonik - 2007/05/06 03:44:47
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SixStringSound
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 12:16:39
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I agree with yep.
If you print ANY effect while recording, you cannot change it later during the mix process.
For me, thats very good reason not to record compression during recording.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.... -- Albert Einstein
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 13:00:38
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ORIGINAL: cryophonik
I don't know where you're getting your assumptions from jack, but in my defense: from your own posts, which i clearly spent way too much time quoting above. ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
rather than giving the singer an environment where they feel comfortable, you give them a singing class.
Who said my singers weren't comfortable? And what's wrong with trying to improve their technique?
i know i wouldn't be comfortable if my "ears were bleeding" when i belted it out too loud, or if i had to concentrate on my vocal levels so you could get a nice input signal. as a singer i should be concentrating on singing, not keeping a consistent volume to make your job easier. granted, some singers will go way beyond what is controllable post-tracking so you may need to get creative in that respect or teach them something simple like "lean back when you belt it out, lean forward when you are quiet" sort of thing. there's nothing wrong with trying to improve technique in your situation, i just don't think it's very cost-effective or fair for typical scenarios. The singers I work with are very good friends of mine and also very talented, intelligent, and capable individuals who will tell me if they don't like what they're hearing. We work together as a team. They are very familiar with compression and we have tried all sorts of headphone mixes with/without compression, gating, effects, etc. until we've found what works best for each singer. Sometimes that means some light compression and/or gating, sometimes it means none. the main thing i have a problem with in your description of how you track vocalists is that you make the singer work harder so you work less. while this may improve the singer's technique, make your life easier, and maybe the results aren't as important because you are a hobbyist and these people are your friends (as you say below), it seems rather odd that you would ask Why would you want to do this? in regards to compression in headphones since most studios are not trying to provide singing lessons. comfortable singers will track faster and better than ones trying to improve their technique. ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
i suppose you charge by the hour too
I don't charge at all - I'm a serious hobbyist with a nice home studio. I am also a long-time performing/studio musician and live audio technician, but I gave that all up for a much more lucrative and satisfying non-music career and family. Now, I work with a few female vocalists, one with a lot of recording experience, the others with relatively little. We work together on songs and we do what we need to do to give them a comfortable monitoring environment while attempting to get a good recording. We also push ourselves to improve all of our techniques at every opportunity. They usually do not like a lot of compression in their headphone mixes because it either sounds unnatural to them and/or they view it as a band-aid approach (as do I) and would rather learn better technique to control their dynamics.
that is fine, but you obviously have a unique situation here. again, my problem is not strictly with what you are doing (since you don't charge money, if everybody's happy then great), more with how you seem to think it's a superior approach for the rest of us. again, i get that from this quote of yours: Why would you want to do this? if i missed something in that, feel free to explain to me what it was. Regardless, jack - I've obviously offended you with my views, responses, approach, or something. Sorry about that - I didn't realize this was such a sensitive issue for you and I sincerely apologize. However, I will continue to record with the methods that work best for us and that's all I have to say on this matter. normally i let stuff like this slide but the combination of your attitude and the irony of asking me if i had been reading your posts closely when you clearly forgot the content of the one post of yours that i responded to, well that pushed me over the edge. next time i'll try to have more restraint and be less of a jerk. =)
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cryophonik
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 16:08:16
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edit: double-post - OOPS!
post edited by cryophonik - 2007/05/06 16:55:30
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cryophonik
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 16:52:00
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
...more with how you seem to think it's a superior approach for the rest of us. again, i get that from this quote of yours:
Why would you want to do this?
if i missed something in that, feel free to explain to me what it was.
It's called a question - that's why there's a question mark (?) at the end of the sentence. If I had a "superior approach", I wouldn't need to ask a question now, would I? I asked the question, then gave some reasons why I wouldn't use that approach. BTW - do you really think that my singers' ears are literally bleeding? I doubt anybody else has trouble comprehending that this was an exaggeration to make a point, hence the silly little smiley face (  ) at the end of the sentence in that post. And your point about making the singer work harder so I can work less is laughable. Would I be doing this for FREE IN MY SPARE TIME as a HOBBY if setting up a compressor and/or drawing in an envelope was considered "work"? Turning knobs or clicking a mouse may be considered "work" in your book, jack, but certainly not in mine - I enjoy doing this sort of thing. On the same note (no pun intended), none of the singers consider simple things like leaning back, leaning forward, singing louder, or softer an unnecessary burden, let alone "work" - but some of them (one in particular that I have been referring to) needs a bit more practice. We prefer as a group to spend the time/effort required to get a good solid take by implementing proper mic technique, voice training, etc. and minimize the use of things like compression, pitch correction, etc. That concept also applies to me whether I'm manning the mixer or recording my own bass/keys/vox. ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
you may need to get creative in that respect or teach them something simple like "lean back when you belt it out, lean forward when you are quiet" sort of thing.
This is exactly what I/we do. If you had read my earlier posts, you would have seen this: ORIGINAL: cryophonik
...the singers I work with have sub-par mic technique. Yes, we work together to improve that, but a little compression used judiciously can go a long way to save what could be an otherwise marginal take.
Rather than reading my posts for what they are, you are making a bunch of presumptions about me and the working relationships I have with my singers. jack - I can't explain this any more clearly - the OP asked a question, I have an approach that works for me, I contributed it. Pick another battle, dude - your whining and WAY off-base assumptions about me and my working relationships are ridiculuous and annoying. edits: clarification and typ0s
post edited by cryophonik - 2007/05/06 16:56:15
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 17:45:10
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ORIGINAL: cryophonik
ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
...more with how you seem to think it's a superior approach for the rest of us. again, i get that from this quote of yours:
Why would you want to do this?
if i missed something in that, feel free to explain to me what it was.
It's called a question - that's why there's a question mark (?) at the end of the sentence. If I had a "superior approach", I wouldn't need to ask a question now, would I? I asked the question, then gave some reasons why I wouldn't use that approach.
sorry, that was my bad. i thought yep had explained the reason why pretty thoroughly, and when you said "why would you want to do that?" i read it as "that's a silly idea" rather than a serious question. BTW - do you really think that my singers' ears are literally bleeding? no, that would be absurd.  I doubt anybody else has trouble comprehending that this was an exaggeration to make a point, hence the silly little smiley face () at the end of the sentence in that post. i assumed you meant if they heard themselves way too loudly that they would know to back off. i also assumed "way too loudly" would be uncomfortable, thus my original point about the singer's comfort being more important than their dynamic control. And your point about making the singer work harder so I can work less is laughable. Would I be doing this for FREE IN MY SPARE TIME as a HOBBY if setting up a compressor and/or drawing in an envelope was considered "work"? Turning knobs or clicking a mouse may be considered "work" in your book, jack, but certainly not in mine - I enjoy doing this sort of thing. i enjoy what i do at my job and what i do as a hobby, but it's still work, in my definition of the word. On the same note (no pun intended), none of the singers consider simple things like leaning back, leaning forward, singing louder, or softer an unnecessary burden, let alone "work" - but some of them (one in particular that I have been referring to) needs a bit more practice. We prefer as a group to spend the time/effort required to get a good solid take by implementing proper mic technique, voice training, etc. and minimize the use of things like compression, pitch correction, etc. That concept also applies to me whether I'm manning the mixer or recording my own bass/keys/vox. that is an excellent plan to develop a singer's technique and get more consistent takes. i just don't think it's such a great plan for a professional studio tracking strangers day in and day out, or if you are in any kind of hurry to make a recording. ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
you may need to get creative in that respect or teach them something simple like "lean back when you belt it out, lean forward when you are quiet" sort of thing.
This is exactly what I/we do. If you had read my earlier posts, you would have seen this:
ORIGINAL: cryophonik
...the singers I work with have sub-par mic technique. Yes, we work together to improve that, but a little compression used judiciously can go a long way to save what could be an otherwise marginal take.
i never said anything about compression on the input channel while tracking. my whole argument thus far has centered around compression on the vocals in the headphone mix. your quote here has nothing to do with that. plus i never said you didn't try to teach them technique, it's clear that's what you concentrate on. rather i was saying that in a normal studio environment it is sometimes necessary to teach a little bit of technique, but the important part is making the singer comfortable while tracking, not more technically proficient. Rather than reading my posts for what they are, you are making a bunch of presumptions about me and the working relationships I have with my singers. you are right. i assumed they paid you for a service, and that wasn't the case. knowing all the facts i don't have anything negative to say about your approach itself, i just feel it's not a good idea if the goal is laying down the best possible tracks in the shortest amount of time, especially if money is involved. jack - I can't explain this any more clearly - the OP asked a question, I have an approach that works for me, I contributed it. Pick another battle, dude - your whining and WAY off-base assumptions about me and my working relationships are ridiculuous and annoying. the OP was actually about compression during tracking. the thread branched off into sending a compressed version of the vocals to the headphone mix. that is what i have been talking about the entire time, in my ridiculous, whining, sensitive, offended, laughable, annoying, not-reading-your-posts-very-closely (twice!), pre-supposing, way off-base and absurd manner. this whole conversation is completely unrelated to the original post.
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cryophonik
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 18:16:10
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Cool - thanks for the reply, jack. It sounds like we understand each other and we're buddies again! 
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/06 18:58:14
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no problem. forums are difficult because it's pretty hard to figure out where the other person is coming from sometimes.
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themidiroom
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/07 11:00:58
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
sorry, that was my bad. i thought yep had explained the reason why pretty thoroughly, and when you said "why would you want to do that?" i read it as "that's a silly idea" rather than a serious question.
I had that same feeling when I read it. Bottom line is if somebody tells me about a particular technique, most of the time I'm willing to try it. If it works, cool; if it doesn't, then no biggie. Every little bit helps in my book. As much as I enjoy this, it is technically work so if I can incorporate methods to get the best results and save some time and effort in the process, that's super.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/07 19:27:26
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yeah this whole thread has pretty much convinced me i need to look into using input monitoring for vocals. cranking the vocal + mix in the headphones is pretty fatiguing, at least for me.
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themidiroom
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RE: Compression during recording
2007/05/09 14:54:43
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
yeah this whole thread has pretty much convinced me i need to look into using input monitoring for vocals. cranking the vocal + mix in the headphones is pretty fatiguing, at least for me.
This thread has been a bit fatiquing as well.  For now, I'm going to stick to what works for me. I track in Pro Tools, and the input monitor is zero latency. I use two sets of analog outs from the audio interface; one for the mix and one to monitor the vocals. They are routed to aux sends which hit the headphone amp and away we go. I track vocals dry with the exception of a low or high shelf depending on how the vocal sounds. My initial experiments with compressing vocals during tracking have taken too much time and I focus more on a good headphone mix and good mic pre/recording levels.
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