ston
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 10:41:01
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As I understand it (albeit not terribly well), you only really need to worry about pan laws if converting a stereo mix to a mono one, isn't it?
Also, as mentioned above, it you use automated panning then how this will sound will depend upon the pan law being applied.
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drumr
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 11:17:22
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spindlebox
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 13:26:37
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So Papa2004 was correct: This from the article . . . 0dB center, balance control. The signal level stays constant whether the signal is in the left channel, right channel, or set to the middle. This is what I wanted. Thanks to drumr for posting the article, and to Papa for knowing it without the article. I'm using this as my default from now on, as I'm NOT moving to any other DAW because of my chronic SONAR addiction.
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/11/13 13:28:02
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Legion
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 13:57:44
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0dB center, balance control. The signal level stays constant whether the signal is in the left channel, right channel, or set to the middle.
This is what I wanted. But, if I don't misunderstand it... That will really cause the sound to appear 3 dB softer as one channel is removed (compare to if you would play a track and it's clone to the master bus and then remove the clone). The +3 dB or -3 dB is to make the sound appear at constant level. What I still don't understand is the different tapers in Sonar but as Hansenhaus and others have pointed out the difference seem to be small.
Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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kgarello
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 14:21:24
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Although I don't have the book in front of me I distinctly remember Roey Izhaki from "Mixing Audio" recommending a -3db law.
Ken
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spindlebox
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 14:35:40
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ORIGINAL: Legion
0dB center, balance control. The signal level stays constant whether the signal is in the left channel, right channel, or set to the middle.
This is what I wanted.
But, if I don't misunderstand it... That will really cause the sound to appear 3 dB softer as one channel is removed (compare to if you would play a track and it's clone to the master bus and then remove the clone). The +3 dB or -3 dB is to make the sound appear at constant level.
What I still don't understand is the different tapers in Sonar but as Hansenhaus and others have pointed out the difference seem to be small.
Maybe I'm thick (and I for one have never suggested that I'm NOT) but this statement: The signal level stays constant whether the signal is in the left channel, right channel, or set to the middle. —suggests otherwise. Unless I'm failing to comprehend a deeper meaning or some hidden inuendo somewhere?
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/11/13 14:36:20
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Legion
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 16:04:05
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Best way to be sure would be to compare using an average meter like Voxengo Span (if the ears don't cut the cheese).
Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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jpkeys
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 16:40:46
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ORIGINAL: spindlebox
Maybe I'm thick (and I for one have never suggested that I'm NOT) but this statement:
The signal level stays constant whether the signal is in the left channel, right channel, or set to the middle.
—suggests otherwise.
Unless I'm failing to comprehend a deeper meaning or some hidden inuendo somewhere?
How about an example: You are sitting in front of a pair of speakers. You send a signal to only the left speaker. You hear that volume level. It is even measurable with a simple dB meter. Now you send the exact same signal to both speakers. Is it louder? Yes, because you now have two speakers producing the same output. By how much? About 3dB. That is the "0dB center, balance control" panning law. Now, let's say as you go from hard panned on either side to full center you want the perceived volume to be unchanged. The only way to accomplish that is to gradually decrease the signal level as the signal approaches the center. That would be by a full -3dB when fully centered. Now, the volume level (again, measurable with a meter), stays the same when centered (two speakers the same volume as one). That is the "-3dB center, constant power" panning laws (sin/cos or square root taper). Finally, let's say when you go from full center to hard panned one side you want the volume level to remain unchanged. You would accomplish that by increasing the signal as you pan, to where it is increased 3dB when fully panned (one speaker the same volume as two). That is the "0dB center, constant power" panning laws (Sonar's default is the sin/cos taper version). Helpful?
JP X1A PE | UAD-2 Solo, 2 x UAD-1 | MOTU 828mkII | Presonus Firepod | ASUS P5B Deluxe | Q6600 @ 3.0GHz
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spindlebox
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 18:10:22
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Helpful? Actually, this is getting funny. . . . uuuhh . . . I g-g-uesss SO . . . M-M-mister . . . I g-g-uessss I undah-stayanddd DUH movin' side tuh side thang. What's this all about then? The signal level stays constant To me, that means THE SIGNAL LEVEL (i.e., volume) STAYS (i.e., doesn't change) CONSTANT (i.e., the same throughout) —HELPFUL? 
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jpkeys
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 20:29:12
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ORIGINAL: spindlebox
What's this all about then?
The signal level stays constant
To me, that means
THE
SIGNAL LEVEL (i.e., volume)
STAYS (i.e., doesn't change)
CONSTANT (i.e., the same throughout)
 Signal level is NOT volume. Volume is more closely associated with power, as in the "constant power" pan laws. Volume is the combination of what you hear coming out of two speakers. When the signal stays constant (your 0dB center, balance control panning law), the net result is a +3dB gain (double the power) at the center because you are putting that same signal into two channels vs. one. Pan to one side, result is 3dB lower (half the power). So the SIGNAL LEVEL stays constant, but the volume (POWER) increases when you pan to the center. In order for it not to increase, you need to decrease the signal when panning toward the center (or increase when panning outward). Constant signal does not mean constant power. If you want your tracks to be louder in the center, use the balance control panning law. If you want the level to remain relatively the same regardless of where they're panned, use one of the constant power panning laws. 
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/17 03:26:19
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ORIGINAL: jpkeys
Signal level is NOT volume. Volume is more closely associated with power, as in the "constant power" pan laws. Volume is the combination of what you hear coming out of two speakers.
....
Great explanation...sometimes the details of working with audio are not that obvious (...and semantics can be a b**** as well) _______________ As for the sin/cos vs square root panning thing...they are just 2 types of functions when processed correctly add up to a constant value. The sample values that get recorded are voltages and power is proportional to the square of the voltage. Also, it's convenient that: 1. sin^2 (x) + cos^2(x) = 1 and 2. x + (1-x) = 1 To maintain constant power we just need to multiply each side (L/R) by the appropriate square root of each term, ie. sin(x) and cos(x) OR sqrt(x) and sqrt(1-x). Let the voltage be y and x be the panning amount. Since the total power equals the L power + R power and power is proportional to voltage squared we have either: 1. L: y*sin(x) R: y*cos(x) 2. L: y*sqrt(x) R: y*sqrt(1-x) For total power we square each term and add together: 1. y^2*sin^2(x)+y^2*cos^2(x) = y^2*(sin^2(x)+cos^2(x)) = y^2 2. y^2*(sqrt(x))^2+y^2*((sqrt(1-x))^2) = y^2*(x+(1-x)) = y^2 From these equations we see that for any input and any panning amount we achieve a constant power output (and that correlates roughly to equal volume). The graph of sin/cos and square root of x look like this. There's not much info to glean from this other than they are 2 different options that obtain the same goal...(click image for full view):  Here was another taper visualization that might seem more intuitive...yellow is sin/cos and red is sqrt... taper-sin-sqrt.jpg
post edited by altima_boy_2001 - 2008/11/17 06:29:14
You can use me as your eSoundz referral (altima_boy_2001).
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Legion
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/17 15:36:19
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Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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joetabby
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/17 18:12:59
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There are some really good panlaw descriptions here. The confusion seems centered on apparent volume vs. signal level/str. Hopefully that difference has registered, otherwise panlaw is always going to be mirky business. Bottom line, you generally want to manipulate your real volumes -- signal level be damned. Level, re pan, is only useful in so far as it manages intent, unless you're trying to match some old mixing deck. So fuggetaboutit. But here is the real world situation that might also help bring it home: your mix is almost perfect, and the only thing you now wanna do is just move one little guitar a farther left in your stereo field. So you rotate left and either . ...a) it suddenly also decreases in volume (0dB const) or . ...b) the levels happily stays the same (-3dB). (For extra credit, what might be the consequence to master bus level, if you left no headroom going into this? --Joe "Just leave it at -3dB unless you have a good reason to change it" Tabby
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taccess
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 00:55:39
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Great Stuff Thanks Everyone ,very helpfull
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Paul P
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 10:17:36
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☄ Helpfulby BobF 2015/12/12 21:37:42
taccess
Great Stuff Thanks Everyone ,very helpfull
If nothing has changed with the pan laws since Sonar 6, then this post has very useful information.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Anderton
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 10:41:50
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☄ Helpfulby BobF 2015/12/12 21:37:35
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bitflipper
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 10:56:27
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Hey, Craig, I just noticed that your bio blurb says you've lectured in three languages. This is a side of you that I was not aware of. Are you actually fluent in three languages? I assume that living in the Southwest, one of those is Spanish. What's the other?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Anderton
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 11:08:49
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I'm fluent in English and French, and have given seminars in Spanish. I wouldn't consider myself fluent in Spanish, but I know enough to give presentations (and I also know crucially important phrases like "dos mas cervezas, por favor" ). True story: I was giving a seminar on synthesis in Argentina, and referred to adding vibrato with the "rueda de modulacion." People looked at me with total confusion...some asked what the "rueda de modulacion" is, and I said it's the controller on the left side of the keyboard. "Ah, si, si! Yo comprendo...el mod wheel!" Seems they just called it a mod wheel. Like French people saying "weekend" or us saying "joie de vivre."
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WallyG
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 11:21:29
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papa2004
You might be surprised at how often users fail to consider using a search engine to find the simplest of answers...The number probably resembles the same percentage as those who never consider using the Help files or consulting their manuals...
I just Google'd that. It's 78%... Walt PS: Did you know that Google should have been spelled Googol or 1e+100 !
Roland Jupiter 80, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland BK-7m, Yamaha Montage 6, ARP Odyssey, Excelsior Continental Artist, Roland FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 Professional, Melodyne Studio 4, Behringer X-Touch, RME Fireface UCX, MOTU MIDI Express XT - ADK Pro Audio Hex Xtreme 6 Core i7 4.5GHz, 64GB, 480GB SS, 3 X 3TB Hard Drives, Win 10, 2 X 27" & 1X 46" Monitors, My WEB site - www.gontowski.com/music
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ampfixer
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 11:29:18
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/13 11:24:29
I'm more jealous about the 3 languages than your tech chops Craig. I wanted to learn another language and always failed. Too lazy or just not wired for it, I'll never know.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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WallyG
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 12:12:44
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Anderton
...
True story: I was giving a seminar on synthesis in Argentina, and referred to adding vibrato with the "rueda de modulacion." People looked at me with total confusion...some asked what the "rueda de modulacion" is, and I said it's the controller on the left side of the keyboard. "Ah, si, si! Yo comprendo...el mod wheel!" Seems they just called it a mod wheel....
Another True Story: I was playing a wedding and doing the throwing of the bouquet and garter routine. When it came time to have the guy who caught the garter, put it on the girl who caught the bouquet, the girl was bashful. I also knew she was visiting from Poland and couldn’t speak English. In my limited polish vocabulary I said “Chodź tu dziewczyny pro się” which should have been “Come here girl please”. She was highly insulted. I found out I should have said “Chodź tu dziewczyny pro szę” Very similar, but what she heard was “Come here girl pig”. I had ham and egg on my face… Walt
Roland Jupiter 80, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland BK-7m, Yamaha Montage 6, ARP Odyssey, Excelsior Continental Artist, Roland FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 Professional, Melodyne Studio 4, Behringer X-Touch, RME Fireface UCX, MOTU MIDI Express XT - ADK Pro Audio Hex Xtreme 6 Core i7 4.5GHz, 64GB, 480GB SS, 3 X 3TB Hard Drives, Win 10, 2 X 27" & 1X 46" Monitors, My WEB site - www.gontowski.com/music
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RSMCGUITAR
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 14:47:55
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Hansenhaus
I'm just tired of people who are lazy in the this country....ah but don't get me started on that!
You know, despite the constant myopia, the United States isn't the only country in the world. The OP is in Sweden.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 18:34:15
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well, I want to thank the OP for starting this thread. As a result I now understand what pan laws are and feel vindicated for leaving them well alone.
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Wouter Schijns
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/12 19:49:21
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SimpleM
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/13 10:25:02
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Anderton
'
and I also know crucially important phrases like "dos mas cervezas, por favor" ).
Now there's either a man that saves his legs from trips back to the bar or always looks out for his drinking buddy...
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Anderton
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Anderton
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Re: RE: What panlaw and why?
2015/12/13 10:51:25
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Glyn Barnes
well, I want to thank the OP for starting this thread. As a result I now understand what pan laws are and feel vindicated for leaving them well alone.
Not 100% sure since it's been ages since doing an OMF import, but I think if you're doing an OMF import from another DAW, it's important to have the panning law in your DAW be the same as the panning law in the source DAW.
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