Jose7822
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 11:28:00
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Bristol_Jonesey
Hey Jose, our above exchange:
I guess I should pull the plug on the writing side, call it a day and mix the damned thing!!!!
Don't worry, it happens to all of us
Reminds me of a conversation I had with Marah about 18 months ago, when I was still a relative noob.
She was getting disheartened about having so many projects in a state of limbo, and was losing objectivity about getting them finished. I proudly announced that I'd never start a new project before finishing my current effort.
Fast forward to now, and I've got well over a dozen "in-progress" projects - a couple just need mixing, some need vocals, some need fleshing out in terms of arrangement, some need their MIDI parts replaced with guitars, some are just sketches......
Funny how things change.
Don't worry. You're not alone :-P
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Jose7822
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 12:40:12
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Edit and Update found on last post on page 1.
Basically, my MIDI controller enables me to change the MIDI channel live! So now I can play an instrument using various articulations as it was meant to be played :-) This is even better than keyswitching since I don't have MIDI notes (for keyswitches) cluttering my tracks. Best workflow ever all thanks to you guys!
Thanks so much!
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munmun
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 13:35:34
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I use GPO and bounce all midi tracks to audio once done. That helps with archiving as well in case the softsynth is no longer handy.
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jackn2mpu
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 15:34:36
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Jose7822
Aww,
I was getting so close to perfection. Thing is that the Kompakt player doesn't allow you to create your own keyswitches, and the ones that are already programed in it have separate keyswitches for long and short articulations. Otherwise, I'd be using keyswitches, but alas.
But it would be fine if I'm able to change channels even if it's not dynamically. I just don't wanna go back to working with multiple MIDI tracks anymore. It's just counter-intuitive for me, and I'm loving the way the new workflow is going so far. Anyways, I'll try to figure out how to change MIDI channels from my controller, even if not done dynamically.
EDIT: Just found out that my MIDI controller has a live MIDI channel edit function (nice!!). I can change the MIDI channels on the fly, but it's only practical between two adjacent channels (maybe 3). However, I did encounter problems with stuck notes (there's always something, isn't there?). Now I have to figure out where the problem lies..sigh. Well, thanks for all your help guys. I think I'm gonna stick to this workflow as I find it much easier to work with all these articulations this way. Peace!
UPDATE: I'm in heaven! As long as I don't press/hold any keys while switching channels everything works fine. This is so awesome!!!
Jose: You're going to keep on getting stuck notes as long as you insist on doing this the hard way. I don't see how using multiple MIDI tracks or embedding keyswitches in a MIDI track is a problem. If you had or have the full version of Kontakt you can (I think) make your own keyswitches. I just don't see how working with multiple MIDI tracks (one for each articulation) is counter-intuitive. Granted it is if you consider it from the point of view I expressed in my previous post here of being able to play a softsynth/sampler like a real instrument. There's just some sacrifices or adjustments that have to be made when working with a computer. Supposedly there's a way around this with Garritan's libraries (I think) or possibly the Play engine version of EWQLSO. You've got a computer that I would give my eye teeth for as regards horsepower - use it and don't skimp on the MIDI tracks.
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jackn2mpu
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 15:36:08
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Jose7822
Edit and Update found on last post on page 1.
Basically, my MIDI controller enables me to change the MIDI channel live! So now I can play an instrument using various articulations as it was meant to be played :-) This is even better than keyswitching since I don't have MIDI notes (for keyswitches) cluttering my tracks. Best workflow ever all thanks to you guys!
Thanks so much!
MIDI notes for keyswitches are one note per articulation change, nothing more. Would be a LOT simpler than the way you want to go.
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Jose7822
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 17:58:41
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Jack,
I think you need to give this a try. I've already done the 50+ MIDI tracks projects, each with their own articulation loaded, and it just sucks to work that way. It is not simple at ALL, and requires a lot of Copy/Paste/Delete extra notes steps.
So far, with this workflow change, I've been able to considerably reduce my track count (espcially with the help of Instrument Tracks). I can now see complete phrases instead of melodic lines spread over multiple tracks. I've even managed to switch articulations (somewhat freely) while recording or playing the instrument. Sure, you can view multiple MIDI tracks in the PRV. But that requires selecting a whole range of tracks to be able to concrete a single melodic line from one instrument. What could be easier than double-clicking on one MIDI track? Sure, they have keyswitches with the most used articulations loaded. But why did they divided it into a short and long keyswitch? I would totally be using keyswitches instead if it wasn't because you can't create them in the Kompakt player. Even PLAY doesn't have this functionality yet (supposedly PLAY PRO will).
I can avoid the stuck notes as long as I don't hold a key while swicthing channels. Otherwise, it plays perfectly. I'm able to record 2 or 3 articulations in one take, and later go back to modify whatever notes needed a different articulation easily using the Inspector View. Just change the channels and I'm done. No more Copy/Paste/Delete extra notes to as many tracks as articulations you may be using. Just to give you an example, imagine if I had to record a Tutti section with 3 articulations. This requires 3 MIDI tracks per instrument using your method. With mine, I only need 1 MIDI track that can be recorded live in one take. You can't beat that.
Seriously, give it a shot one day. You might be surprised.
Take care!
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jackn2mpu
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/01 21:11:44
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Jose7822
Jack,
I think you need to give this a try. I've already done the 50+ MIDI tracks projects, each with their own articulation loaded, and it just sucks to work that way. It is not simple at ALL, and requires a lot of Copy/Paste/Delete extra notes steps.
So far, with this workflow change, I've been able to considerably reduce my track count (espcially with the help of Instrument Tracks). I can now see complete phrases instead of melodic lines spread over multiple tracks. I've even managed to switch articulations (somewhat freely) while recording or playing the instrument. Sure, you can view multiple MIDI tracks in the PRV. But that requires selecting a whole range of tracks to be able to concrete a single melodic line from one instrument. What could be easier than double-clicking on one MIDI track? Sure, they have keyswitches with the most used articulations loaded. But why did they divided it into a short and long keyswitch? I would totally be using keyswitches instead if it wasn't because you can't create them in the Kompakt player. Even PLAY doesn't have this functionality yet (supposedly PLAY PRO will).
I can avoid the stuck notes as long as I don't hold a key while swicthing channels. Otherwise, it plays perfectly. I'm able to record 2 or 3 articulations in one take, and later go back to modify whatever notes needed a different articulation easily using the Inspector View. Just change the channels and I'm done. No more Copy/Paste/Delete extra notes to as many tracks as articulations you may be using. Just to give you an example, imagine if I had to record a Tutti section with 3 articulations. This requires 3 MIDI tracks per instrument using your method. With mine, I only need 1 MIDI track that can be recorded live in one take. You can't beat that.
Seriously, give it a shot one day. You might be surprised.
Take care!
Why should I change a workflow that's worked for me for years and is the normal way most people work? Besides, my keyboard setup can't change channels without going into either the keyboard setup itself or monkeying around with the setup in my MIDI interface (MOTU MIDI Timepiece AV USB) and switching setups on the fly - those aren't automatable and would require my stopping playing just like I do now with multiple MIDI tracks. Different setups you and I have. Besides, if I want to do it in one track I could do it inside Kontakt and create my own keyswitches if I wanted. But like I say I've been doing separate MIDI tracks for each articulation for years and it works - why change? But hey, if you want to go off on your own with your method who am I to question it? It just seems like you never really were going to try what people suggested here anyway. And it's not just me, but others that suggested the separate tracks idea. If it seems like I'm a little put off, I am, and it's not an ego thing.
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Jose7822
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/02 01:50:42
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Hey Jack, Thing is, I've already tried the "multiple MIDI tracks" way and I personally didn't like working like that. Actually many people don't. Go the the Sounds Online forum and you'll see what I mean. Right now I'm finding this new workflow better and MUCH more intuitive. It's still new to me, so I might encounter some roadblocks up ahead. Perhaps the advantage for me is that my MIDI controller has that very handy feature of being able to switch channels on the fly by pressing an UP/DOWN arrow. There's also a dial I can use to switch channels, but the buttons are more precise. It's almost like having keyswitches except I can't do as many unless I have enough time to switch. But it's rare that I'll use more than 3 articulations unless I plan on recording a whole take (not likely). However, it has two major advantages over using keyswitches: 1- I don't have to spare any keys on my MIDI controller for keyswitches. Mine has 88 keys though :-P 2- I can play/record multiple instruments at the same time and switch to the same articulations at once (taking into account that I have configured them to be similar all accross the different instruments of course). Remember that Tutti example I gave you earlier? Well, instead of having to work on individual tracks for each articulation, I can just record them on multiple instruments at the same time while simultaneosly changing articulations. Now that's a time saver right there. On the other hand, you would be able to do the same in Konatkt, since it lets you create your own keyswitches. But not in the Kompakt or PLAY engines (at least not until PLAY Pro is out). 3- Oh, just thought of another one. I don't have to hide/delete keyswitches from the PRV if I want to print music or export the project to a MIDI file. By the way, If you're comfortable with your current workflow and you get the job done, don't change it. I just suggested trying this so you could see why I like this one. But I'm not trying to change your ways, no sir. I just like trying different options until I find one that I feel comfortable with and, for me, it seems like I've found it. And I did get my ideas from the people who've chimed in so far, especially Bristol. Thanks a lot dude! Well, I'm gonna keep banging and trying different things until I have solidify the whole process. Thanks a lot to everyone for your great suggestions. You are all awesome! Peace!
post edited by Jose7822 - 2009/10/02 01:54:53
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Workflow Using Multi-timbral Orchestral Samplers?
2009/10/02 07:09:37
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No worries Jose - glad it's working out so well for you, any given a bit of time and thinking space - I might even try to implement some of this myself.
(Thread printing out as we speak!!)
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