Bristol_Jonesey
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How do you get "THAT" sound
You know, the sound associated with overdriven electric guitars in modern metal music. It's definitely distorted, but sounds almost clean at the same time - no muddiness, or fizzyness, just a complete wash of power chords and/or single notes. It can't be down to EQ alone, it can't be down to compression alone I'm guessing, it starts with getting as close as you can with your guitar/amp settings - but I'm really struggling to get that tone going in my music - any clues anyone?
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Lemonboy
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 9:35 AM
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Sound on Sound have an article on metal production this month and I think going into next month as well, that would certainly be worth a read. Andy
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 9:43 AM
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Cheers Andy - will give that a look. Good timing.
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dlogan
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 9:44 AM
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Are you mic'ing your amp? If so, try using a splitter cable with one end going into your amp that you're mic'ing, and have the other go into your interface clean. Then mix a little bit of the clean track in to the distorted track. You can also record it two different times - one clean and one distorted - but using the method I described will keep thing tighter because it's the exact same performance. I have done basically this same thing before with my old Line6 - using one output with the effected signal and one with the clean signal. Depending on your hardware, this might be an option for you as well instead of the splitter.
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Ron Vogel
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 10:09 AM
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What are you using for distortion now? I was trying lots of distortions. I found that a fuzz box (which I avoided for years) ended up being the ticket for heavy distortion, but yet be articulate. Also, I think compression can lead to killing overtones and harmonics, so be careful with that. I think the best bet for you though is to compile a sample of various sounds from songs you like, and research what they used to get them.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 10:44 AM
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The best distortion I'm currently getting is from the Boss DS1 pedal. I've got a fair few options, from micing up my small Marshall combo, running through a POD XT Pro. The Marshall has an overdrive channel which doesn't really do the job. I've also got a Peavey Bandit, but it's too damed loud for home recording. I've recently had both my guitars set-up - new strings, intonation etc, but finding that killer tone is elusive. Thnaks for the input so far lads - keep those ideas coming!!
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dontletmedrown
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 2:56 PM
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The trick is to record multiple passes through different amps with the gain dailed LOWER than you might think. The combination of all the slightly-dirty tracks should get you closer to THAT sound. Needs to be played tight, of course. If the best sound you're getting is from the DS-1 maybe you just have a "unique" sense of taste?  The DS-1 isn't exactly known for it's metal tone. Better for sustained chords. You will also need VOLUME to make those cabinet speakers move. Have you read the Slipperman guide to distorted guitars? That helped me a lot.
post edited by dontletmedrown - November 02, 09 3:00 PM
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Ron Vogel
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 02, 09 3:23 PM
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That DS1 is killing you! The DS1 is really designed to make small amps sound big, and that depth generally translates poorly when mic'd. You would probably be best served to find something that's a little more "in your face" sounding for recording. I have used the DS1's with and without the Keeley mods...the keeley mod should be done to EVERY DS1! If you have soldering skills, pick up one of the many DIY kits off ebay and a few hours of your time...it's totally worth the effort!
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Philip
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 03, 09 0:58 PM
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Bristol, you're right ... it is quite complex. Besides using a Fender, Ibby, or Les Paul with their 'special' pups ... a virtuoso metal guitarist has his work cut out for him/her ... Ax-Fx Pre-Amp Processor by Fractal (if you wish to shell out $1500 to $2000) is a valid tool ... for ax-masters and the faint of heart ... to achieve something near "that sound". ... has all the metal signal-chains (configurations) of the metal and fuzz masters ... hundred or so 'metal' presets with all the solid state equivalents of fuzz, gates, compressors, EQs, harmonizers, flange, reverbs, multi-bands, cabinets, pre-Amps ... etc. But, I have not (yet) gotten even it .... to produce distortion sounds nearly as beautiful as those rare guitar masters and their producers ... who know their sh!t like rocket science. Doubtless we'll get a sweet piece of their mega tones ... little by little.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 03, 09 4:47 AM
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Yeah I did a fair amount of reserach on the old t'interweb last night, and the subject is indeed far mor deep & complex than I first imgained. I'm not in a poisition to crank up amp volumes to any degree, due to neighbours etc, so I guess at the outset what can be accomplished will be a compromise. But on saying that, I've got a number of tools at my disposal, all the time in the world, (barring major illness!!) so I'm going to take all these ideas on board and start experimenting with layering, playing with different gains/distortions (type AND amount), EQ (guitar, amp (when I can get away with it), plugs, sims etc. Seems to have stirred a bit of interest this thread.
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jaredshadesofgrey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 06, 09 1:51 AM
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hey guys Haven't posted here for years. Ok to get big guitars... Mic your cab, shure 57 just about touching the grill, half way off from the centre of the cone, remember not to have too much gain, the addition of takes will make it heavy. Now you need double takes, not cloning, but actually playing the parts each take. Try using different guitars or different amps with each take. Eq to taste, so high pass, scoop the mids abit, and add some highs to give some air. Use a multiband comp, to tame those lows, then add some saturation to the guitars. I then use a plug called the oxford inflator (cost alot, but worth it), this makes the guitar sound wider in a way. I rarely add compression to electric guitars as they already have compression (due to being distorted). Also remember that the bass is whatt really makes those guitars sound heavy!!!!!
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PTV
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 06, 09 3:28 AM
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I'd suggest amp modelling. Most metal players (including myself) play with Active EMG pickups, these really help smoothing and clearing the tone. I've got a PRS with passive pickups in and they sound really fuzzy in comparison.
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JustGotPaid
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 1:00 AM
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You will hear engineers say over and over that metal players want a lot of high gain and almost every time in the playback they hear and complain how washed out the sound is and wish they had cut back on the gain. I have yet to understand why the same ears here it very different ways from the "take" to the playback, but it happens, and I was the same way. The high gain sound as you are playing sounds SO good...then when you hear the playback it can be very different. I know this isn't exactly the answer you want, but I've also heard time and again that it's the "moving air" that gives "that" sound. And this means volume. I tried for months to get "that" sound with effects or going direct in from the amp and never got anything close to a miked amp sound. And I used three different PODS and several different Line 6 and Behringer amps that had literall thousands of variations in amp and tone simulation. And remember...a simulator is just that...a simulator...I'm still going for the real sound. You can get close with the amp models, software, going direct, but to me it's just not the same as a good miked hot amp with some volume. At first I didn't like the sound of the SM57 mic, but I experimented till I got a good sound. The SM57, doubled (not cloned) with a Peavey PVM 22 (yes, that's right) give me my hottest sound. A Sterling ST33 does a good job as well, very good. I know the software and simulators are getting better, but I just like that old miked amp sound. Countless thousands of rock songs (and metal) have been recorded with just an SM57. The old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. Every studio in the world has the classic and inexpensive SM57 and SM58, and for a reason. If you have the patience, find the sound you like on one of your favorite artists CD and pick a guitar part, maybe a lead break or intro, where you can sort of isolate and focus on the guitar and listen to it closely. Then sit there and do recording sound check after sound check till you get right on the money or as close as you can. And be sure to take notes. You can also takes "notes" by just talking so the mic can pick you up, as you describe the mic, the position, the amp settings, any effects settings, the POD settings, and so forth. Another thing to remember. Some of these guitar slingers do some exotic things, but when it gets right down to it nothing beats simplicity. I've read articles where they also blow a lot of smoke detailing methods too complicated to be practical for the home studio musician. You can easily complicate it beyond the point of being "good" into the land of frustration and diminishing returns. This is supposed to be fun, not frustrating. In the end it will be you, your guitar, amp, mic, (or simulators and effects)and the recorder. Just play and have fun and keep at it til you get your sound. With patience, you will. Hope this helps. DS
post edited by JustGotPaid - November 10, 09 1:14 AM
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feedback50
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 10:18 AM
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Good info here. I've had to wrestle with many a guitar track, especially when the player resisted my efforts to capture a "safety" track clean through a direct box while we recorded the amped guitar. Something about some distortions that are way too grainy and leave nasty edges all the way up the spectrum. EQ helps a bit, but it's not a cure. I encourage players with limited studio experience to go back and actually listen to the tones used on their favorite metal or grunge records. Heavy distortion has so much harmonic content that it can eat up all the space in a mix very quickly. Listen to the number of notes actually played under heavy distortion. Usually there are only single strings (or at most power chords) being played under heavy distortion. Quite often there are entire sections played with nearly no distortion when you listen carefully. I think it's the tendency to want that big sound right away rather than through a carefully constructed combination of tracks. In the studio its quite different. Layers are a good thing to a point (you can over-do it and loose the precision of the attacks with too many tracks). I think something in the rhythm guitars needs to be moving constantly to give enough edges (attacks) so that doubling and panning can be noticable in the mix. Basically more distortion requires less sustain and fewer notes. On one recent project with overly distorted guitar I tried every amp sim I had in my arsenal (pretty much everything out there). I ended up using the Nigel plug from UAD (no longer supported). It did something to break the gainy distortion that was recorded into finer particles that let the track lay in the mix much better. Another thought about keeping an extra track through a direct box for every distorted track is that it gives you much better transients if you need to tighten things up with Audio Snap (or equivalent). You can export transients from the clean track to correct timing in the distorted track. Transients in a distorted track are often too compressed to detect.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 10:45 AM
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Right. First thing on the shopping list is a decent DI box. How I've managed to survive without one for so long is another story - but any suggestions what to look for? What to avoid? Is this any good?
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skullsession
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 11:42 AM
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Much of the problem as I see it is that some guys want a sound that their gear just doesn't make. That's a real problem. A great "modern distortion" guitar track is all about the right amp. We shouldn't expect a Fender Twin, Mesa .22 or any sim to actually sound like a Splawn or a Deizel.
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feedback50
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 11:52 AM
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It might be alright. I usually use a good quality passive DI. The active DIs range from poor to very good and may have better sensitivity in certain situations (they can impart thier own signature though). Beyond sonics, most DIs are going to get kicked, stepped-on or dropped frequently, so don't ignore the mechanical side of things. The quality of connectors and switches is important as well. Also before you lay down any tracks listen to the DI input with the gain up while you move the guitar around some to see if the guitar output wiring and cord is solid. I've had tracks screwed up by long-standing noise issues (clicks, pops, bad switches, intermittent contacts) that had gone unnoticed by the player. It will surely surface just while you're in the middle of your best take.
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guitardog247
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 1:18 PM
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You could go to http://www.guitargeek.com/ and find out what some of your favorite players use for a rig. If they are in the database. But these are the live rig, and frequently what people use in the studio is different, but not always. A quality tube amp is the only way to get killer tone. But it sounds like your worried about neighbors, and well you don't have a quality tube amp. Like what skullsession said, you need a great amp, hands down. Have you tried any of the POD stuff? I would think there is something usable anyway for you in them.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 4:15 PM
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I think spending a few hours with the Pod might get me a LOT closer, to be honest. I've only really scratched the surface of what it's capable of, made a couple of my own presets, and it has a direct out which can be used for re-amping or re-modelling afterwards. Should have though of that earlier <doh> Edit to add: Worried about the neighbours? We've been registered as a noise nuisance twice. He complains about my wife mowing the lawn  He complains about the radio being on  He.. ah, you get the picture. The people I spoke to at our local council reckon that he might just be a bit "over-sensitive" when I explained our position, honestly and openly. So a loud guitar amp is out of the question at the momnet. Moving home is an option we're considering anyway. We both want to move closer to the coast, so I just might return home to Devon.
post edited by Bristol_Jonesey - November 10, 09 4:20 PM
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 4:38 PM
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I'm guessing, it starts with getting as close as you can with your guitar/amp settings - but I'm really struggling to get that tone going in my music - any clues anyone? Start at the source (guitar and amp) Are you getting THAT sound when you play the guitar thru the Amp (or AmpSim)? If not, then no amount of processing/EQ will fix it. IMO, It's all too easy to dial-up overly distorted/saturated sounds... especially with solid-state amps. That sound totally lacks any sense of dynamics... I'd start by using an articulate guitar... with a small tube amp. Dial up a sound that's distorted/dirty when you really dig in... but that cleans up a bit with lighter touch. (I'm partial to P90 pups into Fender tube amps - YMMV) When mic'ing guitar cab, I use a two mic approach 1. Large diaphragm condenser to capture some 'size' and fidelity 2. SM57 to capture an aggressive/focused mid Balance these two resultant tracks to fit the mix. Over-saturated guitar is akin to "flat-line" mastered mixes... (static/boring/fatiguing)
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 4:47 PM
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He complains about my wife mowing the lawn That's just absurd/unreasonable... If a small tube amp is out of the question, have you checked out Amplitube Fender? That's one of the better AmpSims. Use a proper high-impedance input... and the results are pretty good. They have a demo... and there's currently a 3-for-1 offer (might hit 4-for-1) where you can get three of their amp-sim plugins for the cost of one.
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JustGotPaid
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 10, 09 5:15 PM
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The more I think about it, get a 100 watt Marshall stack. DS
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 11, 09 5:31 AM
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DS, the more I think about it, I'm inclined to agree - blow him out of the water for a day or 3.
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jhughs
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 12, 09 9:36 PM
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For what it's worth, I've heard that many guitarists would use low wattage tube amps cranked up in the studio. I've always been envious of Batsbrew's sound. As I recall he uses a Mesa Boogie.
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Ron Vogel
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 12, 09 10:35 PM
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Jim Roseberry I'm guessing, it starts with getting as close as you can with your guitar/amp settings - but I'm really struggling to get that tone going in my music - any clues anyone?
Start at the source (guitar and amp) Are you getting THAT sound when you play the guitar thru the Amp (or AmpSim)? If not, then no amount of processing/EQ will fix it. IMO, It's all too easy to dial-up overly distorted/saturated sounds... especially with solid-state amps. That sound totally lacks any sense of dynamics... I'd start by using an articulate guitar... with a small tube amp. Dial up a sound that's distorted/dirty when you really dig in... but that cleans up a bit with lighter touch. (I'm partial to P90 pups into Fender tube amps - YMMV) When mic'ing guitar cab, I use a two mic approach 1. Large diaphragm condenser to capture some 'size' and fidelity 2. SM57 to capture an aggressive/focused mid Balance these two resultant tracks to fit the mix. Over-saturated guitar is akin to "flat-line" mastered mixes... (static/boring/fatiguing) I always use the two mic approach, I've used 4 mics on a cab in the studio even. 1 at the edge of the cone, one in the back of the cab, 1 room mic, and another on a snare to pick up the rattles. I play with the two mic thing at home. The sm57 is always on the edge of the cone...about 6-8" back (too close makes it shrill). Sometimes I'll put the condenser on an angle off the cone, or a few feet back, or at the wall...depends on the sound I'm going for. I also have to agree with another poster that small amps work great...and a single speaker is the best approach. I like the 12" cone size the best for recording, and it gets used on 90% of all guitar. I made up an extension cab with a 6 x 9 speaker that really cuts through for leads. In person it sounds pretty lame, but sounds great recorded.
post edited by Ron Vogel - November 12, 09 10:39 PM
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DigiBiu
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 15, 09 9:19 AM
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+1 on the Amplitube Fender. Even guitar players like it, which is more than I can say for most other amp sims.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 26, 09 8:23 AM
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Given the choice, which Boss pedal has got the "best" (yeah, I know) sound out of the ML2 or the MT2.
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Middleman
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 26, 09 12:15 AM
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Small amp overdriven with an SM57 on the grill. As stated above multiple passes with various degrees of distortion and a couple of clean passes added into the mix. That is the poor mans way. It's the distortion you want not the volume. You can build an awesome wall of sound panned hard right and hard left by the way.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
November 27, 09 4:57 AM
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Yeah, I've read a lot of people who record at least 4 different takes - pan 2 each hard L/R with different guitars, pups, settings etc.
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stickman393
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Re:How do you get "THAT" sound
February 01, 10 4:16 PM
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Interesting thread. I'm astounded that everyone had so much advice without an example of the sound you were going for: "definitely distorted, but sounds almost clean at the same time - no muddiness, or fizzyness, just a complete wash of power chords and/or single notes". Seriously - that could be quite different depending on our imaginations. Do you have an example that you could point us to? Oh - and my advice would be: be ruthless with the EQ. Cut the bass freqs.
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