Helpful Reply(More info! AFTER RECORDING) metronome clicks on time, accents don't follow meter changes

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johnadon
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June 01, 10 12:39 AM (permalink)

(More info! AFTER RECORDING) metronome clicks on time, accents don't follow meter changes

I'm about to pull my hair out. I've scoured the forums but can't find anyone with my exact problem.

Although I've kept my subscription to Sonar Producer up to date over the years I've been using open source software for recording, but Sonar recently added a couple of features in 8/8.5 that exceed the capabilities of the software I was using. Please bear with me because I'm re-learning Sonar and I'm having trouble with one of the most basic features. It should be a no-brainer, which leads me to believe I have an anti-brain.

My problem: I have several meter changes in a project I'm working on, but the metronome accents for first beats are not following "obediently" as the help file says it should. The beats themselves do line up just fine, it's just that Sonar loses all sense of where the accented beat is located within the measure. Also, once I reach the one of the meter changes and then go back to the beginning of the song, the metronome does not accent the correct beat at the beginning either. (Just for reference, the meter changes are about 100 measures into the song, and consist of one 5/4, 2 4/4's, 3 3/4's and then back to 4/4's. The song starts out at 4/4. I guess i should also mention, too, that there are a couple of tempo changes. The beats themselves do line up even during the gradual tempo changes I inserted, it's just the accenting of the metronome that goes haywire, and even then only after I mess around whether the meter changes are located.)

If I close my project and re-open it the metronome works fine from the beginning, but once I start playing around near my meter changes the metronome gets quite cranky again.

I tried a variety of things including attempting to set the 'Sync' setting to internal, which Sonar will not let me do with either the WDM or ASIO drivers. (That's an entirely different question I have, but I don't really care how it's set as long as it's working. Sonar always put me back to audio sync.) I'm using an Echo Layla24 if that makes any difference.

Thanks for any help!!! I'm sorry this post is so long and I hope it makes sense. Whenever frustration sets in, the words do flow. :-)

John
post edited by johnadon - June 01, 10 1:14 PM
#1
johnadon
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 1:08 PM (permalink)
More info: The metronome weirdness only happens after I record something. It works just fine if I open the file and jump around to different locations in the recording with the 'metronome while playing' option set. The problem starts only after I've recorded and then it's screwed up from there on out. That should give me a clue as to where to look, but I'm still stumped!
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rbowser
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 1:24 PM (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Hi, John - I've had some iffy results with the metronome also, due to meter changes.  I can't say problems have been exactly the same, but allowing for differences in the way to describe things, they may be.

One thing - "...Sonar always put me back to audio sync..."  That's right, it has to if you're using soft synths since there's audio involved in the project as soon as you insert one.  If you were using external hardware synths, Sonar would let you keep the internal clock rather than audio.  Something nice about using MIDI that way is that the temporary metronome settings are available - 1/2 time, or whatever you want to program - helpful for working on more difficult passages.  You can't change those rehearsal settings when audio's in charge though.

A question, when the metronome gets off like that, are you positive that your measures are correct?  Have you looked at the Staff View and seen for yourself that after your 5/4 measure, for instance, that there's another meter change inserted for the next measure?  I'm just checking that you have visual proof that you've inserted all the meter changes you think you have.

Randy B.
post edited by rbowser - June 01, 10 1:26 PM

Sonar X3e Studio
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#3
8 ohm
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 1:30 PM (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Accents will appear only on beat One.
Check your Staff view or Meter Map to make sure your meter changes are falling on the correct beat.

If you want to bump around the accent, You could insert a single beat measure to offset it a beat or two.

Or you can turn off the accent in the metronome options as a quick fix.
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johnadon
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 1:46 PM (permalink)
The meter changes are indeed indicated in the staff view at the points I inserted them. And no, Sonar will not always put the accent on the first beat. My project is living proof. :-) Please note that I've discovered that this problem only occurs after I've recorded some audio. Even just a blip of audio recording throws the metronome off permanently for the session. I hate to have to do work-arounds for something so simple.

I'm going to remove the soft synth temporarily to see if there's something there monkeying with the timing. Thanks for the explanation of the soft synth vs. sync. That makes eminent sense!
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johnadon
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 1:48 PM (permalink)
Also, thanks for the tip on just setting the metronome audio just to play the same tone/volume. That's going to get me by for the next few moments!
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8 ohm
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 1:56 PM (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Cool, good luck.

Let us know what you find.
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johnadon
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 10:12 PM (permalink)
Thanks, but I'm probably not going to spend any more time on this since everything else works in linux. I might do my final mixdown in Sonar, but other than that it's never performed quite as well as the stuff available in a unix environment. (I'm not a snob about it, but I gotta do what I gotta do.)
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rbowser
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 11:14 PM (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Very strange.  It sounds like your audio tracks slipped out of sync somehow.  You gotta know that after years of using Sonar in a vanilla flavored Microsoft environment, nothing like what you've described has happened to me.  I'm rather sure that what happened is due to a yet undetected user error.

Randy B.

Sonar X3e Studio
Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
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johnadon
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 01, 10 11:25 PM (permalink)
I'm pretty sure it's not. Normally (I'm a system admin at my real job :-) ) I blame it on the user, but I've duplicated the error with several 'new' projects. ( I haven't really started new projects, but just test ones using the default template.) Could be anything, including the drivers for my sound card. It's pretty darned old. Who knows? I'll prolly return to Sonar to do my final mix once I've got the project done elsewhere, but I'm a little bit disappointed. I'd really like to take advantage of some of the new features. I have this sneaky suspicion I need to update my hardware.
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johnadon
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Re:metronome clicks right on time, but accents don't follow meter changes, other probs June 02, 10 11:19 PM (permalink)
Hm. This is totally weird. Even though I've never messed with the default 'Normal' template, it appears that the file was corrupted in some way. Perhaps a versioning issue from old installs since I haven't used Sonar in quite awhile? I reloaded the Normal.tpl file from a backup I did recently and do not have the problems I was experiencing, although I've had to start over using the new default template. Not a big deal since I'm well-rehearsed at this point. :-)

Once again, thanks for the responses and suggestions! I love great feedback from actual users especially when it comes almost in real time. :-)
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