Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR

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Bag
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/26 21:27:49 (permalink)
Performers don't have to pay royalties ... the venue/bar does. 
 
As a performer you would only have to worry about royalties if you were going to record and release the live show.

Great job, Jim. I've done backing tracks for the musical "Chess" for a theatre and the learning curve of doing such projects is a fantastic experience. Whatever your inspiration for doing this kind of thing, even just a sheer love and admiration of the music, the process of deconstructing and then recreating the track is a brilliant learning exercise.

I only have one question- the vocals? You're doing them?

I have to point out from the above- in most countries it is the performer's responsibility to ensure any copyright payments are made, not the venue. Many venues do a pay an annual "blanket" copyright fee to cover background music, DJ performances, etc... and sometimes this might also cater for any cover material performed by a band, but probably not. Never assume a venue has the correct copyright arrangement in place. Many don't, because it's too expensive. If you use any form of backing track- any form -this is a breach of "mechanical copyright" (similar to burning a CD or illegally creating an MP3 from an original CD) anyway. Even a MIDI track is a breach of mechanical copyright.

It's a very low risk- very low. Copyright in the UK used to expire after 15 years unless renewed by the original performer, so maybe Lamb is unencumbered anyway. But the best thing to do is remember that most copyright laws are (perhaps) ridiculously draconian and very protective to protect the original owners properly during the material's most financially productive period. Beyond that, infringements are not policed because it's simply not worth the effort. And as I said, it differs from one country to the next.

Cheers, Bag.



#31
gwp99
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/26 21:30:21 (permalink)
so the bends and slides are the MIDI data recorded when I played the guitar
jkleban




now that's impressive...and of course the most efficient when you only have to swap out soundsets - I have had good results with my IMG2010 midi controller for piano but not so much for guitar sounds - may have to go back to the drawing board.

After viewing the track sheet for Lilywhite Lilith, I hope you get it up for downloading...this is a great project!

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#32
daveny5
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/26 22:06:33 (permalink)
It's a very low risk- very low. Copyright in the UK used to expire after 15 years unless renewed by the original performer, so maybe Lamb is unencumbered anyway.


The odds of that are none and none.

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#33
jimkleban
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/26 22:10:04 (permalink)
Bag,

I am actually, personally in contact with some members of classic Genesis concerning this project.  I enjoy no personal monetary gain and in a way, am providing free exposure to GENESIS music (I hope everyone who hasn't listened to The Lamb, goes out and buys a copy).  To your point, I don't have any legal document that says it is OK for me to do this and worse case, I will be forced to stop distributing my tribute for free.  From my point of view, that would be a good problem to have.

GWP - thanks for the questions about the MIDI guitar... it takes awhile to get the technique down but after all these years, I have developed a few tricks. Is it the MIDI files that you would like to have access to?  I might put them up using DEPOSIT FILES but that service is a pain because if there is no downloading of a file for 30 or 60 days (I forget which), they delete it and with it, the download link to the file.

Jim


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#34
jimkleban
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/26 22:13:15 (permalink)
Daveny,

Is that Mackie board any good?  I have the small one and it is very clean for an analog mixer (I think I have the 4x2).  I only use it as a headphone amp and to drive my monitoring system but I do like it.

Jim



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#35
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/27 05:31:23 (permalink)
Hi Jim.

Let us know when the entire project is finished.

The Lamb is one of those albums I grew up with and grew to love enormously.

Re-creating it 36 years later must be a MASSIVE challenge - I hope you have fun with it.

How far haved you got, apart from "Lilywhite"?

p.s. - are you going to mix it the same way? With most of Hacketts work inaudible (Banks' influence), or do you intend to bring some of it further forward.

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#36
Bag
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/27 05:57:42 (permalink)
jkleban


Bag,

I am actually, personally in contact with some members of classic Genesis concerning this project.  I enjoy no personal monetary gain and in a way, am providing free exposure to GENESIS music (I hope everyone who hasn't listened to The Lamb, goes out and buys a copy).  To your point, I don't have any legal document that says it is OK for me to do this and worse case, I will be forced to stop distributing my tribute for free.  From my point of view, that would be a good problem to have.

GWP - thanks for the questions about the MIDI guitar... it takes awhile to get the technique down but after all these years, I have developed a few tricks. Is it the MIDI files that you would like to have access to?  I might put them up using DEPOSIT FILES but that service is a pain because if there is no downloading of a file for 30 or 60 days (I forget which), they delete it and with it, the download link to the file.

Jim

Sorry Jim, a small misunderstanding. I was never suggesting what you're doing could, or should, cause any problems- actually I assumed you know exactly what you're doing copyright-wise. I was more concerned that some younger readers of these posts might "take on board" the idea that they're not responsible for covering their own bums in regards to copyright. Regardless of the music, the project or the venue (playing live) people should never expect that someone else has got copyright issues covered. On the whole, venues are not obligated that copyright is dealt with. The performers are.
You didn't answer my question about the vocals... you did them?



#37
Mr. Ease
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/27 06:19:47 (permalink)
Just to give you an example on copyright a few years ago in the UK. 
 
I decided to have a party for a "significant" birthday and booked a local hotel. 
 
I was having friends playing live at the do and the Hotel insisted on the band having a valid PRS (performing rights society) licence before they could play.  The band had no such licence and had no idea about it, despite most of the band members being in the PRS (as they receive royalties for some of their songs!). 
 
The licences can only be purchased for a 1 year duration so I ended up paying for their licence for a whole year so they could play for my one night! I think it came out at about £160 or so. 
 
Still by pure chance the Supremes were staying in the Hotel (with Junior Walkers All Stars as backing) and came to crash the party when they heard the music!  Ha, the Supremes at my party and I sang for them!!!!
post edited by Mr. Ease - 2010/07/27 06:25:41
#38
jimkleban
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/27 07:31:21 (permalink)
Bristol,

I have a lot of the music in a stage of near completion for The Lamb... I have focused on the mixing technique (Johnnie Burns and the Lads did some unconventional stuff in the studio mixing this album and it is tricky recreating ITB using plugins).  Lilywhite Lilith was a good, short track to hone in these mixing skills and I think I have gotten it closer.  

The Hackett stuff question is a tough one... if I make Steve's parts too loud, it throws off the balance of the mix but I agree, he was mixed in very low.

Bag, as far as the vocals go, this is Peter Gabriel singing.  I was able to rip the center channel off the surround mix which has Pete's vocals isolated, so it is just a matter of mixing Pete's vocals to sit in with the MIDI music.  I wish I could sing this good.

Mr. Ease, great story about The Supremes.. I hope they sang, Where Did Our Love Go?

Jim


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#39
gwp99
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/27 14:31:10 (permalink)
Is it the MIDI files that you would like to have access to?
jkleban



Yes, if you were to consider making available, the Sonar midi files for Lilywhite, I would like to see how these first started as a project tune.


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#40
Blades
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/27 22:20:17 (permalink)
Hey jkleban,

You should head over to the the KVR Sonic Reality forum (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) and let Squids know that you did this.  I believe he (Dave Kerzner) played the KB parts at the above-mentioned Kevin Gilbert LLD live concert remake.

I haven't listened to your files yet (pointless on my laptop), but just thought you might want to see what Dave/Squids has to say.

Blades
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#41
jimkleban
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Re:Genesis - The Lamb completely recreated using SONAR 2010/07/28 06:52:49 (permalink)
Blades,

Squids is a friend of mine... actually I met him on line back in the 1990s and he sent me my first sample CD... VINTAGE TIME TRAVELLER... which started me down this LAMB recreation path.

The drums on this track is Ocean Way Drums, which Dave also produced.

Thanks for heads up though.

Jim


The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI
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#42
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