Actually, the tweeter-at-ear-level rule is almost never followed when it comes to the big, full-range soffit-mounted speakers. They are usually mounted higher than ear level and often angled downward.

There are two reasons for that. First of all, it's less critical the further away the speakers are. Those big guys might be 10 feet away, compared to 3 feet for nearfields. At the closer distance, you actually have to be concerned about the point at which the tweeter and woofer acoustically merge.

The other reason is that those big speakers aren't for the engineer's benefit anyway. They are there mainly there to impress the client sitting on the couch behind the engineer.

OK, here are the most recent pictures!  As you can see, I listened!!

The level of my head sits about right in the middle of the speakers now.  I also laid the wood siding back flush.  Next is going to be bass trapping treatment in the front corners.

Jeff,
THANKS!!  I unfortunately did not get to hear the monitors mounted up high as they not only sent me the wrong voltage (220), but they sent EURO plugs!!  LOL.

Irregardless, this is obviously what I needed to do, and I appreciate your much needed insight and help!

I do plan on getting that reticulation arm, I don't care if it costs ~$300.  I DO have room to have it mounted, so I'm definitely doing it.  For now, I'm just going to "slum" it and do the best I can with the monitor where it is; though I may set up something temporarily (shelf or something against the bottom frame of the window), where I can place the monitor during critical mixing.

Thanks Dave!!  It sounds pretty darn sweet too!!

ONE QUESTION: 

I have a subwoofer.  What is the general rule for using one.  I don't want my final mixes to be swayed by it.  I do like having one; it makes things sound so freaking nice!!  But how much is OK to have it up in the mix?  Is there a formula; recommended dB ratio?

Thanks!!!

spindlebox I would connect up the sub. A few obvious things here. Placement should be near or on the same plane as the speakers. Check that phase is correct and level wise you need to set it so that it reinforces the low end rather than blow your head off which is where many seem to have it set.

There is an issue of crossovers. ie if the sub is on do you want to run your main speaksers through a crossover so they start rolling off at the sub crossover frequency. ie do you take the bass end out of the main speakers while the sub cuts in and continues the bottom end down.

Running your main monitors right down to their lower limit and having the sub could give you a hump in the bass response of your system especially around the sub crossover frequency.

At the TAFE where I teach they have rigged up a footswitch that turns the sub off but it also puts the speakers back to normal response eg extended bass while it is off. Then if it is turned on the main speakers go through the crossover instead. A bit tricky.

You could just have it running in tandem with your main speakers just to check on any sub sonic sound that may be in your mix you did not know about. But make it easy to turn it off from your operating position.

That gets us back into crossovers. Are you going to use the passive crossover in the sub or is there an active crossover in the sub. Then the question is how good is the active crossover for sound. Because you are now listening through a crossover so the quality and sound of the crossover needs to be up there. (Hi Fi in me here) I built an active crossover from an electronics mag and it uses very high quality op amps etc. It was not simple or cheap. The distortion and frequency response all need to be top class. ( I dont use the crossover, I made it for other reasons eg Home theatre etc) I have Mackie HR 824's and the bottom end is pretty darn good. Dont let me put you off, just bringing up some points about incorporating a sub into your setup. If you have it then find a way to utilise it for sure.

As Dave says do some accurate measurments down around the crossover frequency and see what is actually going on in that part of the spectrum.

... a member of the band from the 70's the Doobie Brothers. 

 

Many speakers without a sub (my Mackies and your JBL's by the look) are quite capable of going down to say 40 Hz well and reproducing very good bottom end. But if you have a sub connected what should happen is the front speakers should only go down to the sub crossover point which might be from 80 or 90 Hz to 120 Hz or so. This means they are having all the real low end removed from them so by themselves they will sound thin. But the sub is designed to come in around this point and take over to right down and often lower than your speakers would by themselves eg 30 Hz.

That is more the correct way to do it. There will be some sort of crossover built into the sub, passive (ie working at high power or speaker power) or line level crossover which is what you need because you have active front speakers. What sub do you have. Make and model so we can look it up and get some info on it.

Now you can ignore the crossover concept and just feed full range to your front speakers and get another full range signal down to the sub and the sub will kill of the high end but in this situation the sub and your speakers are working together especially around the sub crossover frequency and below for a while eg from 120 Hz down to say 40 Hz both speakers will be moving air. This is why I say the bass end might get a bit higher due to this. So you have to decide what approach you are going to use.

The ideal thing is one setting for your front speakers alone all the way down as far as they can go, the other setting front speakers are crossed over at 100Hz etc and sub kicks in and takes over. This is good actually because your main speakers will get all the serious cone excursion stuff removed from them and they will have an easier time of it. You will be able to go up louder, they will sound better and more relaxed because now they don't have to move any air anymore. This is why when a sub is involved front speakers can be much smaller. They don't have to move any air.

Have a think. Your sub positioning sounds fine. I just meant you dont want the sub at the back of the room or too far away from the main speakers. There are some time alignment issues to take into consideration. Because at 100Hz both speakers are moving at the same time.

When I first added a sub to my setup, I initially made the mistake of setting the crossover to too high a frequency, at about 100Hz. My thinking was that I was taking some of the load off my main speakers. However, the sub isn't as flat as my mains, so that setup didn't sound so good. I then gradually lowered the crossover frequency, re-measuring the response after each decrement. Ultimately, the best results were when I set it at the point where the mains are naturally down by 3db, which in my case is about 45Hz. That way, the sub is simply taking over where the mains give out, so when the sub is turned on the overall bass character doesn't change, it just gets deeper.

With the sub kicking in at that low a frequency, its location relative to the main speakers is irrelevant. At 45Hz, it's completely non-directional and the sub could be under your desk, behind you, off to one side - it doesn't matter. Try to keep it away from walls if you can, and definitely keep it out of corners.

When I was setting up my sub, I learned a neat trick for sub placement. You set the speaker on your chair, play back some bass-rich music and starting crawling around on the floor until you find a spot where the bass sounds best. That's where you want to put the subwoofer.

It might be worth thinking about the slope of the crossover above the crossover point.

Good point, Jeff! If the slope of the sub's crossover is steeper than the natural slope of the main speakers, you could end up with an anomaly at the crossover frequency. If you don't know the slope, the safe thing would be to set it slightly above the -3db point of the mains.

No, the good news is that your main speakers simply connect direct to the monitor outs as normal. They are not going through the crossover at all. But these monitor outs will also feed the input to the crossover. You only need the sub out from the crossover to feed your subwoofer.

Some subwoofers allow you to bypass the built in crossover and if you can, you should do it and let the Behringer do the crossover instead. You may not. Any info about make and model of your sub, then I can get a better idea.

Are you sure that sub actually goes lower than your JBLs? LOL. The specs say 35Hz but give no db value, so it's anybody's guess where the practical low extreme actually is. They do list the S/N ratio at >100db -- at 1KHz!

I'm not criticizing your use of a cheap subwoofer, Scott. We all make do with what we've got. My own sub's not exactly a premium unit, either. But I'd advise taking some measurements to make sure that sub is really helping or just getting in the way.

Understood.  I was already planning on mixing without before we spoke here, and in fact did that yesterday with quite pleasing results!

The unit I will eventually get is:  http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=110&MId=5

It runs a cool $989 and is considerably out of my budget.  I have no lack of interest in getting a quality unit, just NO funds for it ATM, so I'm actually QUITE BEYOND the consideration stage Jeff!  LOL.

I'm definitely going to wait for my matching woofer though to keep the family bloodline pure.  In the meantime, I'll play around with this crossover I get and see what happens with the sub I have.  At the very least it will impress clients.  Honestly, it REALLY makes the sound GREAT in there. 

I'll be saving money from some of the projects I have going here; and will use the money towards that.  Baby steps!!  I pay cash for everything baby!!!

bitflipper


A grand for a sub. You realize that works out to about fifty dollars per Hertz, right?

that really hertz! 

I just got my crossover unit.

One question, Dave/Jeff.  How do I find this:

"Ultimately, the best results were when I set it at the point where the mains are naturally down by 3db"

Thanks!

carl tatz monitor positioning do's and don'ts
[link=http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/eq_201008/index.php?startid=9#/8]http://www.nxtbook.com/nx...index.php?startid=9#/8[/link]


I do not have the space to put the monitors 67.5 inches apart. The shelf containing speakers and video monitors will allow for 58 inches for the bottom of the triangle.
My working position is about 30" from the shelf. This puts the apex of the original triangle at 48 inches from the shelf. Obviously the speakers are closer to my wonderful ears. But they are placed sorta according to the theory.

Also have some mopads under the speakers.

J