Sijel
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/19 14:10:24
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The sex pistols had 26 guitar tracks on Never Mind the Bollox, They could barely play one guitar - how did they do 26? 
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daveny5
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/19 15:14:29
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And back off on the distortion! Frank Zappa said a little distortion goes a long way on a recording. Very true.
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daveny5
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/19 15:16:11
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Sijel
The sex pistols had 26 guitar tracks on Never Mind the Bollox,
They could barely play one guitar - how did they do 26?
I was going to say "what, did they record one note on each track?", but I tried to restrain myself... until now.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/19 15:37:41
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Thanks to everyone who took the time to repy, it gives me a bit to think about. I'll just add that what sounds good solo'd (guitar by itself... doesn't necessarily sound great in context with the rest of the tracks. ie: When played alone, you typically go for a full-bodied sound that has plenty of bottom. However, when working in a band setting with bass and drums, you don't want the guitars competing in the sub-bass frequencies with the kick (and to a lesser extent the bass). By using a high-pass filter on the guitars to roll off the sub-bass, you'll dramatically increase clarity... and you'll also be able to turn up the guitars (which will bring them more forward in the mix).
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dr.hash 
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/19 15:44:47
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Try putting something with a tube before the amp emulator. Somebody mentioned Dave Gilmour; he put a stomp compressor before his amp. This was to help achieve that awesome sustain. Yes doubling and tripling your guitar line can help thicken the tone. Have a listen to the song "The Crying Song" on my MySpace page, I wrote and performed this myself. I am very happy with the guitar tone on that song especially the solo. I should be happy the solo was used on a T.V show down here in OZ twice. To achieve that tone I used nothing more than a Behringer Tube Preamp (the $90 version) this was then fed into a generic Creamware compressor. Finally after I had laid down the solo, I used the generic tube distortion included with Creamware as well. “In Search Of The Lost Digital Chord” Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools) Viva la Revolution Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology) http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
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Guitarman1
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/19 19:06:52
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went to your myspace page, but that song is not listed.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/20 07:43:17
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daveny5
And back off on the distortion!
Frank Zappa said a little distortion goes a long way on a recording. Very true.
Who am I to argue with the master? Just Shut up'n'play yer guitar.
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Duojet
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/20 16:34:57
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without hearing a sample, here are some guesses/things to try. I assume things sound ok isolated but not in the mix.
1. remove all effects incl reverb (add them later when you fix the problem)
2. Set all the tone controls on the amp model to flat
3. Use a high pass filter at around 200Hz (I sometimes push it to 300) and a Low pass filter at about 10kHZ
4. After doing the above, raise the volume of the guitars.
5. Using a peak eq boost between 800HZ and 1kHZ (a few dbs, i forget the exact Q)
this works for me in getting definition and also separation from bass and cymbals. Its counter intuitive. Guitars that sound great in isolation disappear in a mix sometimes.
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Guest
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/20 17:06:58
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Duojet
without hearing a sample, here are some guesses/things to try. I assume things sound ok isolated but not in the mix.
1. remove all effects incl reverb (add them later when you fix the problem)
2. Set all the tone controls on the amp model to flat
3. Use a high pass filter at around 200Hz (I sometimes push it to 300) and a Low pass filter at about 10kHZ
4. After doing the above, raise the volume of the guitars.
5. Using a peak eq boost between 800HZ and 1kHZ (a few dbs, i forget the exact Q)
this works for me in getting definition and also separation from bass and cymbals. Its counter intuitive. Guitars that sound great in isolation disappear in a mix sometimes.
I'll play. Please explain what "flat" is on an amp modeler.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/20 17:56:52
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Flat on an amp sim or modeler means that its set so it doesn't affect the sound. Your signal passes through its circuitry, but it doesn't change the sound of it
Thats what flat means in that context..
Cj
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Soundtrapper
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/20 18:36:13
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I haven't read all the posts so sorry if it's been mentioned-
With my interface, the UA-101 one can monitor the line in
signal and the "wet"...I turn the monitor signal off when
recording and hear only what would be recorded.
Something to check I guess.
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Guest
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/20 19:46:48
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CJaysMusic
Flat on an amp sim or modeler means that its set so it doesn't affect the sound. Your signal passes through its circuitry, but it doesn't change the sound of it
Thats what flat means in that context..
Cj
Sorry, but that would have nothing to do with the "tone" controls.
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Philip
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/23 10:55:56
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To the Op:
The DI signal route works well for me ... but only with an Ax-Fx processor ($1500) (outboard) in the path. It contains, essentially, all your/my guitar genres, comps, fx's, verbs, explicit EQ settings, multi-comps, Wahs, flangers, fuzz-boxes, harmonizers, pitch and vocoders, pre-amps, saturation, amps, cabinets, etc. So you can echo everything into your cans (or monitors)
... with several hundred pre-sets to spare advanced noobs from re-inventing the wheel.
That's the price of a mic: A neighbor-pleaser, a no-brainer, saves thou$ands in equipment, wires, and clutter.
Disadvantages of the Ax-Fx: While it has its camp with old-schoolers:
1) The Ax-fx processor can overload itself with CPU intensive fx's
2) Many pres-sets seem overly distorted
3) Re-inventing 'new guitar tones' requires dedicating a pre-set (to replace the factory one(s))
4) It is solid state with vintage simulations ... some puritan guitarists may object.
5) There is a learning curve and some of the 'additional' windows software that comes with it is really for geeks only (still in beta testing).
But for me (advanced guitar-star noob), there's no turning back; I'll probably never spring for bulky guitar gear (nor Sonar-NI guitar gear) again.
(TBH, I haven't mic'd my amp (Roland Cube) for 9 months now.)
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RLD
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/23 12:48:35
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jwh
Hi,
I have a problem with guitar sounds, no matter what I use, line 6, Guitar rig 4, The Boss effects on my V-20, although my signal is strong, and the audio signal looks good in the track, it still sounds a bit weak on play back and seems to lack substance,like it's almost in the background.
Whether the style is a chorused guitar sound,a slightly crunched rocky guitar sound,a bit of picked guitar, it still doesn't seem to sound right in the mix,and I end up having to record four or five tracks of the same guitar piece, to get any decent sound in the mix,anybody help me please!!! I just want a bit of substance to my guitar sounds, and not just a weak sound straight down the middle, if you know what I mean.
Thanks
John
Hey John, While I would never say a Pod or any type of amp sim is better than a tube amp, you should be able to get very good sounds with these products. I've done lots of songs using them and there are some techniques that help one get a good sound. Here is an example...all gits are from a table top Pod. No fx, just the direct sound. Hard Act To Follow Now I'm not saying this is the best guitar sound in the world, just that I think its decent and if you do too and would like some help, I may be able to answer some questions. 
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guitartrek
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/23 15:50:45
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RLD
jwh
Hi,
I have a problem with guitar sounds, no matter what I use, line 6, Guitar rig 4, The Boss effects on my V-20, although my signal is strong, and the audio signal looks good in the track, it still sounds a bit weak on play back and seems to lack substance,like it's almost in the background.
Whether the style is a chorused guitar sound,a slightly crunched rocky guitar sound,a bit of picked guitar, it still doesn't seem to sound right in the mix,and I end up having to record four or five tracks of the same guitar piece, to get any decent sound in the mix,anybody help me please!!! I just want a bit of substance to my guitar sounds, and not just a weak sound straight down the middle, if you know what I mean.
Thanks
John
Hey John,
While I would never say a Pod or any type of amp sim is better than a tube amp, you should be able to get very good sounds with these products.
I've done lots of songs using them and there are some techniques that help one get a good sound.
Here is an example...all gits are from a table top Pod. No fx, just the direct sound.
Hard Act To Follow
Now I'm not saying this is the best guitar sound in the world, just that I think its decent and if you do too and would like some help, I may be able to answer some questions.
RLD - That sounds great.
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guitartrek
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/23 16:01:46
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You can definitely get good results from the POD modeling. Modelers are getting better and better - Fractal, and now the new Line6 HD represent the next generation of modelers - which may now produce tones that are indistuingishable from real amps. But even the current generation of modelers can produce great results.
I've been using PODFarm2 and recording all guitars dry. Too much distortion - and compression - can be a real issue. I only use compression on clean guitars. If you record dry, you can dial in the amp tone after you've recorded all the tracks. Sometimes you just don't know how it will sound in the mix at the time of recording the guitars.
One trick that has helped me for chunky guitars is to record 3 tracks - 2 for Left and Right split with heavier distortion and 1 track 30% to one side with a lot less distortion (different amp model). The cleaner guitar track mixed in with the distorted tracks helps restore definition and helps thicken up the guitars. If you record dry you can adjust everything until it sounds good.
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ruralrocker2010
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/23 16:30:28
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Yeah, I agree. That's all I use. I used to record completely dry and then play around with Pod Farm and add tones to the tracks, but then mixing and mastering became a miserable experience because of how much load that is.
I think you can definitely get good, meaty sound, but you have to be good with EQ, which is most of the battle. I think.
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RLD
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Re:Guitar sound Lacks Substance
2010/10/25 13:05:34
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guitartrek
RLD
jwh
Hi,
I have a problem with guitar sounds, no matter what I use, line 6, Guitar rig 4, The Boss effects on my V-20, although my signal is strong, and the audio signal looks good in the track, it still sounds a bit weak on play back and seems to lack substance,like it's almost in the background.
Whether the style is a chorused guitar sound,a slightly crunched rocky guitar sound,a bit of picked guitar, it still doesn't seem to sound right in the mix,and I end up having to record four or five tracks of the same guitar piece, to get any decent sound in the mix,anybody help me please!!! I just want a bit of substance to my guitar sounds, and not just a weak sound straight down the middle, if you know what I mean.
Thanks
John
Hey John,
While I would never say a Pod or any type of amp sim is better than a tube amp, you should be able to get very good sounds with these products.
I've done lots of songs using them and there are some techniques that help one get a good sound.
Here is an example...all gits are from a table top Pod. No fx, just the direct sound.
Hard Act To Follow
Now I'm not saying this is the best guitar sound in the world, just that I think its decent and if you do too and would like some help, I may be able to answer some questions.
RLD - That sounds great.
Thanks Geno...your stuff always sound good as well. Hopefully JWH will get the answers he's looking for.
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