Danny Danzi
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/23 08:29:16
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Crg I guess we could all be classified as wanna be blues players at some riff or another. When you factor in slow hand, alternate tuning, open tuning and the wolf, you can help but hit a blues vibe somewhere. If you're totally into the blues and that's where your brain is trained, no doubt you'll interpret an altered unison as a double stop. Which leads to the concept of listening as a common person or an engineer. The more you know, the more you form an interpretation based on what's in your mind at the time. That's why sets are so important for performers. You have to have a construct in mind to regulate the style, especially if you use many styles. Since I've been learning more about sound and recording, I can't aviod analysing a song to death without a conscious effort not to or too many beers. I now hear things in songs I've heard hundreds of times that I never heard before. That's really a great post Craig, thanks for sharing. That analysing you speak of was an issue for me as well. It can really ruin a listening experience if you're not careful, can't it? Sometimes those things you never heard before are incredible things...other times, they can make you cringe. Nature of the beast I suppose.
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spacey
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/23 09:23:12
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Danny, There was a scene in a movie that I remember, from Van Helsing I think…. Egor was razzing the werewolf and Drac said, “Egor, why are you doing that?” Egor said, “It’s what I do”. Drac nodded his head like, well that’s right. We see things from our own perspective, naturally. It’s easy to misunderstand and be misunderstood. An example; “I don’t see it that way”- can be taken as “you’re wrong” when it’s simply meant as; “that’s not the way it is in my life”. You’ve hit on many topics. Engineering/mixing. The value of theory, reading/writing music. The fans. The instrument. The diversity or lack of pertaining to styles of playing and listening enjoyment. Dealing with feedback and ignorance. The maturing musician and the changes we go through. Maturing bands and how they may develop. Teaching aspects and dealing with students. You’ve also made the statement about the confusion that is easily brought on by writing in a forum opposed to face to face. I think that all that I’ve mentioned above we understand from our individual perspectives. Not that we may care to determine what’s right or wrong for anybody other than ourselves. With that thought and the statements and questions you’ve made I can simply say that you and I have very different lives with our music. Not that one is right or wrong…just very different. I don’t have to listen to other musicians or fans evaluating or listen to them give me their opinions about what I should be doing or how I should be doing it. You’ve said nothing to offend me or reason to apologize and I have said nothing with the intention of offending you. I answered only to offer my perspective/answers to your questions. I’m sure that Egor, wolfy and Drac would all think their perspective’s were just fine and when it gets down to it…not really care what anybody thought about what they were doing. Best regards, Michael
post edited by spacey - 2011/03/23 09:42:27
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/23 15:12:29
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Michael, Thanks again for the reply and I totally agree 100%. And you're correct, nothing you mentioned in either of your posts offended me. I'm glad mine didn't offend you as that was never my intent. I totally respect and accept where you're coming from. :)
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dmbaer
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/23 18:54:05
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I've never met a keyboard player that wasn't a smart person in real life with a high IQ. I'm sure there's a few out there that aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, but I bet they make up for it in weirdness in a good way. What a fascinating observation! Of course, given that keyboard is my instrument (which is not to claim I'm any good at it), I have to believe you're absolutely correct on this point.
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philz
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/23 19:25:52
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Wow, I finally made it to the end of this intriguing and thought provoking thread. I guess I think less about music than a lot of people who write or play. That may be because I know no theory and am not a good musician (player) by any stretch. I write and I sing and I play a bit (guitar and keys). Curiously, I went off and found the video that indirectly got this started, and discovered that I had already seen it. I guess that's how much of an impression it made on me I find it fascinating that it now has over 32,000,000 views on Youtube, and has been a focal point of media attention. I think it says more about the age in which we live than anything else. Much of what happens in our culture is unquantifiable, and unexplainable, and this is truly a perfect example. Equally inexplicable is why some people would feel compelled to attack this girl for it, but I guess that's just how things work, sad as it may be. For me music is all consuming at a very emotional level. For as long as I can remember when I play or listen to music, I can not do anything else, as it totally absorbs me. So, I don't think about it so much as I feel it. Whether it's my music or someone else's, it either feels right (TO ME) or it doesn't. I often find something to like in nearly all forms of music and all playing styles, even though they may be far afield from what I would play or write. I don't find that I feel differently about music now that I am acting as my own engineer or producer, becuase I've always listened the same way: I hear the whole and the components separately, which, I suppose, is why it can consume me so.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 22:39:15
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 22:43:30
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 22:46:50
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 22:49:10
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 22:57:48
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 23:02:41
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/24 23:13:38
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Jonbouy
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/03/25 00:24:55
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WB Mike Nice varied collection of clips.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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marcos69
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/05/10 22:26:09
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Hey Danny, I had forgotten about this thread and the fact that you had made that video on my behalf. I downloaded it and it is very awesome. Not sure it is something I would use, but I truly appreciate the effort you put into it for me. I apologize for not thanking you sooner.
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hockeyjx
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/20 09:52:22
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Great thread Danny. I know when I was a young lad playing Bonnie's (and the rest of that scene) like you, I was amazed at the criticism around the group as well and did my best to stay out of it. Seems that no circle is immune to elitism! When I was younger, I may have said something "sucked". Now I just say it just "isn't my thing" or I can't "identify with it" and try to point out the good in something. With age should come at least a little wisdom, right??
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Rain
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/20 11:13:27
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Why cheesy stuff can irk me... Because it further propagates the notion that all that matters is to achieve public notoriety - at all cost. Preferably with no effort. And the cost associated with that is global lameness. Can you imagine how low a kid growing up watching Jersey Shores and listening to Rebecca Black will be ready to go to reach our social goals? These are, by our current standards, successful individuals. Exemplary. That Snooki girl makes more money in a week than most of us would make in a year. On a human, intellectual, artistic and social scale, however, her contribution is that of toxic waste. Of course that is of no real importance... Until you realize that those same people who can't spell their name have a right to vote, to drive a car, that every day, they make decisions that have an impact on all of us, on our environment. That they have children - the schoolmates who'll eventually make your 7 years old daughter uncool for not getting breast implants and bottox. That's why I don't really find pleasure listening to the likes of miss Black. So... Next time your kid almost get run over by an douchebag driving a gas guzzler while texting his new "biatch" of the week on his cell phone, you shouldn't get mad at him - by our current standards, that poor bloke is the perfect specimen of what we collectively strive to achieve.
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hockeyjx
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/20 13:19:39
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Rain, I agree with you on a lot of your points, but people evolve as they grow up. I grew up with late 70'/early 80's music and was in the "hair band" mix when I played out. KISS was one of my favorites growing up, and while many a critic and parent felt a similar way about them as you do to Rebecca Black (I have no idea who she is), I ended up just fine in the scale of life. I am college educated and socially responsible, and hopefully an all-around good human being. My musical palette has grown since then, but I realize I key in on certain qualities in music (usually guitar-driven songs with good melodies and good hooks to start). But I still get my prog in on occasionally, or even the occasional beat-driven song. That doesn't invalidate anything else for anyone else ...just me. For example, I love Salvador Dali's art. But I don't understand Monet even a little bit. That doesn't make Monet bad, I just can't look at his art with much appreciation. But I use KISS as an example of what the music BUSINESS is: the ability to market a "PRODUCT" as opposed to artistic integrity. An extremely rare breed would be both ...I can't honestly think of one. They at least write their own material though. Besides there is, in my opinion, a somewhat mindless and sheepish part of the American population that finds pleasure in the things you mention above. Sadly, I think we can agree that is a growing segment. But on the original topic; the Beatles sonic fidelity makes their material even more amazing. Which is to say a composition and idea can often times to me trump most engineering/sound quality issues.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/22 18:56:27
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Rain Why cheesy stuff can irk me... Because it further propagates the notion that all that matters is to achieve public notoriety - at all cost. Preferably with no effort. And the cost associated with that is global lameness. Can you imagine how low a kid growing up watching Jersey Shores and listening to Rebecca Black will be ready to go to reach our social goals? There are 2 types of artists. The one's that create art for the love only, and those that create art for love and the hope of financial security. If you're in it in hopes of financial security, public notoriety, at all cost, is going to move you up the ladder. You can't be mad at someone that finds a way to be successful at this if you are the guy that creates for the love of art that doesn't wish to go any further with it, ya know? What amazes me most about these discussions is how some people will sit here and bash everything into the ground, yet fly a desk as their day gig everyday that they hate. I have no problems with any human being that has found a legit way to survive in this thing called life. Remember, music is classified as part of "the entertainment business." This means it's not just about how great you are at what you do. It's also about how great you are at SELLING what you do. Hockeyjx and I come from the same scene. We can sit here and tell you about numerous bands that sucked so bad, you could literally laugh at their sound. However, some of them lived the part and put on such a great show, you sort of allowed yourself to accept their musical flaws because they really were delivering the goods in other areas. Those areas were easy to spot and you quickly realized why some of them had such a great following that would take a bullet for them. Here's how I see Miss Black. I picture her as my daughter that sings a little bit on the side for fun. She comes to me and says "dad, I found this place where I can make a video and they do everything for me...it looks pretty cool, can we check it out please?" So dear ole dad checks it out...it looks cool, I find out more info, I go for it. The next thing you know, my adorable little daughter has made something of herself at a young age. It matters not how great of a singer she is, but I leave that to her if she wishes to pursue it further to better her voice. She may not want to sing at all. She gets quite a bit of publicity out of this thing and other offers not related to music pour in. Wow, my little girl is something else...you better believe I'm going to be proud of her. Any of you that are parents should appreciate something like this. It made her happy...and she has the possibility of having a future because of it and can STILL go to college to where YOU may not have to pay for it! Not to mention, in a time where teens her age are having sex, doing drugs, getting tats and piercings as well as being labeled gay and bullied by people, this video to me, made a statement that it's ok to be carefree and happy. I'd rather my son or daughter listen to something like this over Disturbed, Marylyn Manson, death metal or gangsta rap. I thought it was brilliant all across the board with a hook to die for and a presentation that was totally pro that made a statement to teens that are pressured and feel horrible because they aren't "in the cool and hip" group. I'll take a billion Miss Black's because they don't seem to have the "blacksheep" mentality to go astray and turn to the bad things in life. I read she has always gotten good grades in school. This is a plus...she's not only focused, she'll learn how to control her money at an early age as well as grow up into her own business. But I guess we're all better off watching these bogus reality TV shows where everyone is porking everyone...who's drunk, who's drugged up...yeah, we'll take our youth watching and emulating that stuff before we'll accept a cute lil girl that took a chance on a video that ended up really successful. I just don't get it. hockey: +1 on both of your posts brother!
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Jonbouy
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/22 19:23:42
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Thanks Danny. That was a refreshing read.
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Bub
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/22 19:36:45
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Danny Danzi Rain Why cheesy stuff can irk me... Because it further propagates the notion that all that matters is to achieve public notoriety - at all cost. Preferably with no effort. And the cost associated with that is global lameness. Can you imagine how low a kid growing up watching Jersey Shores and listening to Rebecca Black will be ready to go to reach our social goals? There are 2 types of artists. The one's that create art for the love only, and those that create art for love and the hope of financial security. If you're in it in hopes of financial security, public notoriety, at all cost, is going to move you up the ladder. You can't be mad at someone that finds a way to be successful at this if you are the guy that creates for the love of art that doesn't wish to go any further with it, ya know? Did you guys see Rebbecca Black perform live on America's Got Talent a couple weeks ago? It was really rough. She really can't sing. She's not really anything without a lot of production behind her in the studio. The only reason her video was as popular as it was is, she's a pretty young woman and it connected with her age group. Could you hear Cher, or Cindy Lauper, or even Christina Aguilera singing that Friday song? I think Rebbecca Black was in the right place at the right time with the right people behind her, but I don't see her going anywhere. If I'm wrong, good for her. Hockeyjx and I come from the same scene. We can sit here and tell you about numerous bands that sucked so bad, you could literally laugh at their sound. However, some of them lived the part and put on such a great show, you sort of allowed yourself to accept their musical flaws because they really were delivering the goods in other areas. Those areas were easy to spot and you quickly realized why some of them had such a great following that would take a bullet for them. See, I'm gonna get hit for this again (HEHE), but I feel this way about some big name groups, one that came up in discussion a few days ago. I can listen to a song and if it sounds great, great, but I really don't 'respect' a group until I hear them live. Chuck Berry ... the man rarely played a note in tune live ... Jimmy Page ... sorry, but the live video's I've seen of LZ did not impress me. Their studio work speaks for itself, but judging by their live performances, I think they were overrated as musicians. Same with Rebbecca Black. Here's how I see Miss Black. I picture her as my daughter that sings a little bit on the side for fun. She comes to me and says "dad, I found this place where I can make a video and they do everything for me...it looks pretty cool, can we check it out please?" So dear ole dad checks it out...it looks cool, I find out more info, I go for it. The next thing you know, my adorable little daughter has made something of herself at a young age. It matters not how great of a singer she is, but I leave that to her if she wishes to pursue it further to better her voice. She may not want to sing at all. She gets quite a bit of publicity out of this thing and other offers not related to music pour in. Wow, my little girl is something else...you better believe I'm going to be proud of her. Any of you that are parents should appreciate something like this. It made her happy...and she has the possibility of having a future because of it and can STILL go to college to where YOU may not have to pay for it! Well yeah, she stumbled on to something by accident and she's reaping the rewards. But I wouldn't consider her a musician or artist by any stretch. Not to mention, in a time where teens her age are having sex, doing drugs, getting tats and piercings as well as being labeled gay and bullied by people, this video to me, made a statement that it's ok to be carefree and happy. I'd rather my son or daughter listen to something like this over Disturbed, Marylyn Manson, death metal or gangsta rap. I thought it was brilliant all across the board with a hook to die for and a presentation that was totally pro that made a statement to teens that are pressured and feel horrible because they aren't "in the cool and hip" group. I'll take a billion Miss Black's because they don't seem to have the "blacksheep" mentality to go astray and turn to the bad things in life. I read she has always gotten good grades in school. This is a plus...she's not only focused, she'll learn how to control her money at an early age as well as grow up into her own business. But I guess we're all better off watching these bogus reality TV shows where everyone is porking everyone...who's drunk, who's drugged up...yeah, we'll take our youth watching and emulating that stuff before we'll accept a cute lil girl that took a chance on a video that ended up really successful. I just don't get it. Part of it is frustration I think. There are those who can sing without auto-tune and can play without audio-snap and quantizing that have worked all their lives in this business, then you see someone come along with no ability to sing and has a hit like this. It's not so far fetched to see how people could be upset about it. Especially if you saw her live. She may be cute and sweet, but the girl cannot sing and looks like a fish out of water on stage. I'm only chiming in on this because I saw her perform live on TV a couple weeks ago on America's Got Talent and I can tell you ... the girl can't sing. But that doesn't mean I don't like the song she put out either.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/22 21:10:57
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Bub Danny Danzi Rain Why cheesy stuff can irk me... Because it further propagates the notion that all that matters is to achieve public notoriety - at all cost. Preferably with no effort. And the cost associated with that is global lameness. Can you imagine how low a kid growing up watching Jersey Shores and listening to Rebecca Black will be ready to go to reach our social goals? There are 2 types of artists. The one's that create art for the love only, and those that create art for love and the hope of financial security. If you're in it in hopes of financial security, public notoriety, at all cost, is going to move you up the ladder. You can't be mad at someone that finds a way to be successful at this if you are the guy that creates for the love of art that doesn't wish to go any further with it, ya know? Did you guys see Rebbecca Black perform live on America's Got Talent a couple weeks ago? It was really rough. She really can't sing. She's not really anything without a lot of production behind her in the studio. The only reason her video was as popular as it was is, she's a pretty young woman and it connected with her age group. Could you hear Cher, or Cindy Lauper, or even Christina Aguilera singing that Friday song? I think Rebbecca Black was in the right place at the right time with the right people behind her, but I don't see her going anywhere. If I'm wrong, good for her. Hockeyjx and I come from the same scene. We can sit here and tell you about numerous bands that sucked so bad, you could literally laugh at their sound. However, some of them lived the part and put on such a great show, you sort of allowed yourself to accept their musical flaws because they really were delivering the goods in other areas. Those areas were easy to spot and you quickly realized why some of them had such a great following that would take a bullet for them. See, I'm gonna get hit for this again (HEHE), but I feel this way about some big name groups, one that came up in discussion a few days ago. I can listen to a song and if it sounds great, great, but I really don't 'respect' a group until I hear them live. Chuck Berry ... the man rarely played a note in tune live ... Jimmy Page ... sorry, but the live video's I've seen of LZ did not impress me. Their studio work speaks for itself, but judging by their live performances, I think they were overrated as musicians. Same with Rebbecca Black. Here's how I see Miss Black. I picture her as my daughter that sings a little bit on the side for fun. She comes to me and says "dad, I found this place where I can make a video and they do everything for me...it looks pretty cool, can we check it out please?" So dear ole dad checks it out...it looks cool, I find out more info, I go for it. The next thing you know, my adorable little daughter has made something of herself at a young age. It matters not how great of a singer she is, but I leave that to her if she wishes to pursue it further to better her voice. She may not want to sing at all. She gets quite a bit of publicity out of this thing and other offers not related to music pour in. Wow, my little girl is something else...you better believe I'm going to be proud of her. Any of you that are parents should appreciate something like this. It made her happy...and she has the possibility of having a future because of it and can STILL go to college to where YOU may not have to pay for it! Well yeah, she stumbled on to something by accident and she's reaping the rewards. But I wouldn't consider her a musician or artist by any stretch. Not to mention, in a time where teens her age are having sex, doing drugs, getting tats and piercings as well as being labeled gay and bullied by people, this video to me, made a statement that it's ok to be carefree and happy. I'd rather my son or daughter listen to something like this over Disturbed, Marylyn Manson, death metal or gangsta rap. I thought it was brilliant all across the board with a hook to die for and a presentation that was totally pro that made a statement to teens that are pressured and feel horrible because they aren't "in the cool and hip" group. I'll take a billion Miss Black's because they don't seem to have the "blacksheep" mentality to go astray and turn to the bad things in life. I read she has always gotten good grades in school. This is a plus...she's not only focused, she'll learn how to control her money at an early age as well as grow up into her own business. But I guess we're all better off watching these bogus reality TV shows where everyone is porking everyone...who's drunk, who's drugged up...yeah, we'll take our youth watching and emulating that stuff before we'll accept a cute lil girl that took a chance on a video that ended up really successful. I just don't get it. Part of it is frustration I think. There are those who can sing without auto-tune and can play without audio-snap and quantizing that have worked all their lives in this business, then you see someone come along with no ability to sing and has a hit like this. It's not so far fetched to see how people could be upset about it. Especially if you saw her live. She may be cute and sweet, but the girl cannot sing and looks like a fish out of water on stage. I'm only chiming in on this because I saw her perform live on TV a couple weeks ago on America's Got Talent and I can tell you ... the girl can't sing. But that doesn't mean I don't like the song she put out either. Would you believe I actually agree with everything you said? :) I'm the same way with live stuff. If someone puts out a disc and chokes live so bad to where I want to throw up, they lose stock with me. And you're not alone with the LZ stuff...I can't tell you how many times I almost got into fist fights with people that are convinced Jimmy Page is God. If that's how God plays live, it's time for me to change over to the dark side. My whole thing with Rebecca is, I thought it was a cool effort. Her for being there, the dude for writing and producing the entire thing. It made him some money and more credibility too. I just think it's a bit of a weak rebuttle when some people down those that have found a way to have a little success in this business. How many people out of work right now...the economy in shambles...and out pops this video where a kid gets a chance at something. If that Ark place would do the same for my old @ss, I'd give it a shot because I think I can sing and perform decent enough to be out there. I'd even try the whole dance thing. Heck I'm writing stuff like that every day for clients and producing it...I'll just cut my hair. LOL! But like I say, it was more the effort and the presentation/delivery of that vid that made me smile. Not her ability. I also saw a few vids with her on youtube where she was singing...and to me, though it wasn't great, it was decent. It's not easy going on America's Got Talent when you are not a serious singer/entertainer. Think about that for a second. Can you imagine what your nerves are doing? You go from being a bedroom/bathroom singer that makes a video where most of the production makes the sound...and then you get all this publicity and get asked to sing on national TV. That's almost impossible to judge and of course the outcome is going to be bad no matter what unless you are a natural as a singer...which we know she isn't. Can you imagine the stress and preparation she must have been through to do that gig? I can't even fathom it....can you? Even a good singer is going to be a bundle of shakey nerves being put in a position like that. You have to have loads of live experience to even have the right delivery, ya know? So though it sounds like I'm sticking up for her....I guess in a sense I am because there are other things that need to be factored in. :) -Danny
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hockeyjx
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Re:Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?
2011/08/22 21:32:18
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Bub, See for me, a song is a painting on a canvas, and I don't care if the painting is reproduced in a live setting. That said, Black's "Friday" is over-produced and I wouldn't go for that style. But I can't think of any bands for what I like are BETTER than the studio version ...they're may be better moments, but not overall better IMO. A Perfect Circle would be a great example of a band whose music I enjoy, but can't bear to watch live. When I write & record a song, I have ZERO concern whether I can reproduce it live - but I do want the emotion/vibe there with a human touch. Guitar is my base instrument, but if I need to drown it in GR4 or some other soft synth to create what I need, so be it. I like layered and harmonized vocals and would prefer a take less-than-perfect that has feel (like Joe Cocker for instance) in anything I do. That said, I think people like us look at music with a somewhat elitist attitude. We can probably play instruments and sing better (better execution) - but are the ideas BETTER? Because we think we are more versed of we should or shouldn't do, does that box us in and creatively limit a better musician? Dream Theater write incredibly complex music, but sometimes I want a juicy, simple hook with neat sounds and transitions. Really depends what day it is. And that is where the fork in the road comes. If people like it, I would say it is valid for them (and I don't have to like it). Like my art example above, I think there are a lot of things I don't get ...but then again, would they get me? Best to do what comes from within with the tools available to make a sonic picture you can that conveys your idea.
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