kb420

jps


Here is an interesting read about software development cycle  Software Development Cycle

Excellent post.  Do you think that's what happened to X1????

I really think that the root of the problem is that the Sonar codebase has turned into spaghetti code, or was never properly structured to begin with. It still uses MFC, which originated in the early 90's and indicates that since those early years there hasn't been a rewrite of the code. Spaghetti code is also caused by poor up-front design, or years and years of inexperienced developers adding or changing existing code without understanding proper object oriented programming, abstraction and related concepts. Spaghetti code has the following characteristics:
 

• Spaghetti code causes program flow to jump all over the place, making it difficult to follow and hence difficult to root cause bugs.
  How it relates to Sonar: Seems there are many tired old bugs that just aren't getting fixed. Are they too difficult to track down? Or will changing the code be too difficult because the functionality is spread out all over the place? Or will changing the code result in breaking other functionality? We will never know, but I believe at least one of those scenarios to be true. 
• Spaghetti code makes it difficult to fix bugs without unexpected consequences. The analogy is that if you pull one strand of spaghetti, it results in changes in seemingly unrelated strands.
  How it relates to Sonar: CW keeps fixing various bugs, but then we find out functionality that worked previously is suddenly and unexpectedly broken.
• Spaghetti code makes it difficult to add new features without breaking existing features.
  How it relates to Sonar: The new UI has brought a huge amount of new bugs, while seemingly unrelated functionality that previously worked is suddenly broken.
• Spaghetti code slows down adding new functionality because there are no clearly defined divisions between existing functionality and hence no clear area to add the new functionality.
  How it relates to Sonar: I'm not sure how this relates to Sonar but at a time when there are a lot of DAWs competing with new functionality, I'm sure the last thing you want is to be slowed down by a crusty, badly designed codebase.

The only solutions to this problem are code refactoring, or a complete rewrite. After so many years, it is probably difficult to refactor the code, but a rewrite might take too long. So I'm not sure what CW can do in this case. I certainly believe things would just get worse if they keep going down this path. I don't think X1 would even be able to get the bug count down to where 8.5.3 was before the next major release, unless they skip a major release cycle.
 
BTW, all of this is just speculation. I have no idea what Sonar's code looks like, all I know is that it uses MFC, and all of the symptoms we see today point to years and years of accumulated cruft that resulted in a huge pile of unmanageable spaghetti code.
 
Or maybe I just like saying "spaghetti code". Who knows...

Michael yes I agree that the developers were probably pressured from above, but note my point is that it is the developers that created the current environment where they can no longer keep up with the pace as dictated from above.

If the code base was well-structured, then we would not be in this mess to begin with. Well-structured code bases do not suffer from the symptoms we see in Sonar. Sonar's symptoms map directly to what I described above. So in that regard it is the developers' fault since management has nothing to do with the actual code implementation.

I may have mentioned before that in my engineering group where I work, we have one team that develops the next new product while the other team maintains (and fixes) the current product. Once developement of the next product is complete, the groups change roles. The former development group becomes the sustaining (fixing) group for the newly introduced product. The former maintance group goes on to develop the next new product. The advantage is that it eliminates the "toss it over the wall" attitude that once released, it's someone elses problem. You desinged it. You released it. You get to fix whatever's wrong with it. I suspect that Cake being a small company, can't afford the luxury of having two full time groups like that. That means that at some point during the year, sustaining the current product diminshes, and efforts shift toward creating the next version.

From a stability point of view I actually have had the best experience with This release since maybe they adopted the name Sonar. I had serious problems with Version 8 right thru to 8.53. Lots of crashes and it would crash every time I changed to a different Audio card (i have 3 and alternate between 2). I have amazingly not had a crash since I loaded X1 (I went straight to X1a and now have b installed. No crashes ... zero. Now I have seen a few issues (Like VVocal not working on anything that has been freshly split and occasional weirdness with the mutlidock)  and some of the new layout changes are definitely half baked and need refinement or augmentation...  but I have to say I don't see alot of these problems with stabiilty.

The point I am making is that for me, clearly the new version was a step forward in stability hence from my experience the bakers have been continuing to work out bugs. For others it has been totally opposite. The problem is, that when new features are added, and when major portions of the program are "modernized" New bugs can get introduced and these might or might not affect your hardware and software configuration. We can all point to great software we used and great experiences, but I suspect we are all a bit deluded or maybe a better word is jaded... I think about my brother and his bizarre fanatical dedication to all things Apple... He accepts any limitations as insignificant and assumes that all standard features on Apple products are the best (best built in audio, best video, best software!) I have an ipad and both daughters have Apple stuff and it is good... but there all sorts of issues that bug the crap out of me... (try surfing the web on an Ipad without being able to see any flash content and you will lose your mind real quick) So for me, I always wait for at least one maintenance release before I adopt a new version. I provide constructive feedback to the vendors that  purchase software and hardware from and I take my business elsewhere when they move in a direction I don't like.... I build my own PCs, but I pay consultants to provide me with the configuration(Motherboard, memory, video and anything else needed to maximize stability with my audio stuff...  (though I still run into problems at various times.... ).

My experience is that Cakewalk is  a good company trying hard to remain responsive to their customers while still competing in their market. Not easy these days competing when development is being sent offshore by competitors and there are more and more players in their space - most of whom have the creative advantage of a "blank slate" to help them look modern and facilitate streamlined performance .... thats just the way it is.

While I can't say I've had any major problems with X1 I am somewhat uneasy.  Generally I just work around problems, and modify my workflow to each thing that I'm doing, so I'm not going to see the things that others consider to be show stoppers - I'll just do it some other way.

My real concern, is that one day, these bugs will bite me, and I'll have real problems.

At this point in time, I would find it hard to justify an upgrade to X2, knowing that its not working quite as well as it should, and I'm perhaps spending longer doing the same jobs that I did in 8.5.3

I like X1 - it brings some nice features that I like and use, but I just have this nagging doubt about it.

Its a bit like driving a car that has had a manufacturer recall - you'd be really wary of it, until it was fixed!

I do like the idea of freezing any future products to fix this X1 COMPLETELY! 

Fix all the ongoing pieces that have "workarounds" and really get the program on solid ground again. 

So far, this X1 debacle has really made Cakewalk look bad and made me question the horse I've chosen in the race. I don't think you can view the events of the past 5 months and not have serious concern over the future.

There is hope, but I CANNOT see how we won't get to X1d or X1e at this point. And if the disturbing buggy trend continues, I can see a lot of people jumping ship.

SilkTone



But then you have to ask yourself... If CW can't find enough competent programmers to pull off a complete UI rewrite, why did they choose to do it then? Whose fault is it that it failed? The customers' fault? Some people seem to imply that. And weren't it CW's customers that stated repeatedly that a bug-fix phase is required to flush out all old bugs instead of a list of useless new features? And wasn't it CW that chose to ignore that advice and went ahead to do the exact opposite, and in the process burried Sonar and all of its old bugs in a huge pile of new bugs? Two patches later, and the forum still lights up like a Christmas tree with newly discovered bugs. Not minor bugs - we're talking major features being completely broken. Whose fault is that? Poor innocent CW or the customers who were tricked into dropping $100 for a non-functional DAW 2.0?

Entirely agreed.

Cakewalk have a long history of directing resources at the wrong thing. At the risk of repeating myself, x64 support at the time instead of fixing existing issues and adding practical functionality was a very bad idea and a complete waste of resources. The 64 bit mix engine is still a bad idea. Cosmetic changes that mostly slow down workflow for the power users is just the latest incarnation of making the wrong development decisions IMO.

Besides fixing bugs, Cakewalk should spend time on the details. We have heard the term "half-baked" all too often on this forum and there is good reason for that. Maybe it is time to bring back up my suggestions list:

UnderTow's X1 Suggestion List

If I can come up with so many things, most are more or less details, after using X1 for two days [1], how come Cakewalk can't figure these things out?

UnderTow
[1] That was X1a so maybe some of those things have since been addressed. I haven't bothered revisiting or extending that list due to the lack of feedback from Cakewalk.

keith

jps


Here is an interesting read about software development cycle  Software Development Cycle

Ha. That's pretty good.
 
Here's another... pre-web usenet classic, for all you that were around "in the old days"... http://www.dourish.com/goodies/see-figure-1.html
 

Heh. Ironic considering that DEC doesn't exist any more. Lessons from history...

UnderTow

Powerful features from previous versions of Sonar that were not in the way of anyone (customizations, etc) were removed for no good reason - perhaps just so they can re-market and resell them to us at a later date?

 
I have this nagging discomfort also.
 
It's one (dubious) thing to delay fixes in to the paid upgrade (such as the sidechain bug which was reported against 8.5.3) but to actually sabotage developed features take two steps back in order to take one step forward takes the ethics of the situation well beyond the line.
 
I still think they should be running a 'stable' and 'development' branch so those of us who don't hanker for 'the bleeding edge' can see steady improvement to our software without having to deal with regular wheel reinvention.
 
Child

You are right about going back to 8.5. I was just hoping Cakewalk would fix everything with X1b that's why I kept using it..

fhehle


You are right about going back to 8.5. I was just hoping Cakewalk would fix everything with X1b that's why I kept using it..

Understood. Hopefully Cakewalk will release a X1c that addresses your issues. Good luck with whichever version you choose to use!

UnderTow

HumbleNoise

fhehle


Dgrm44,


I agree with you. I usually don't post a lot in forums but I felt like registering just for this one. 


Some people may use Sonar just to have fun in their basement, but other people use it to make money. If the DAW doesn't work in the studio... the production stops.


I own a small business here in Canada and this is what I do for living. I have been doing this for almost 10 years now. Since december, I look like a complete idiot in front of my clients. They already know what excuse I'm gonna give them when there is a problem and say: let me guess, your new Sonar crashed again right !? I'm glad that many of them have been working with me long enough to know that I'm not responsible for all this. Because of Sonar X1, I have lost several thousands of dollars in studio time. I have never sweared that much at a program in my life ! 


Sonar 8.5 worked perfectly, I should have never bought X1, this was very stupid of me.... it just "looked" so.. good ! Besides all the anoying little bugs, my main problem is: 


90% of the time I open it, it crashes ! 


90% of the time I close it, it crashes ! 

If Sonar is indeed crashing 90% of the time then that's not a program you should be using in a professional environment. Until you can get it working I wouldn't use it - AT ALL.

And it crashes my sound card too. Common, please Cakewalk ! what is this ? What is going on !? I have been patiently waiting for months for a 4 page (or more) update from you, promising my clients that after march everything would be fixed. I still have the same problems and I can't go back to 8.5 because I won't be able to open the newest projects. I am stuck.

Sorry I can't help you with your crashing but with that much trouble I'll assume you've already talked to the tech support guys and have run through your system with them? If not why not?

Questions: maybe I'm the one that doesn't understand something.. but please.. let me know. 


-Is it possible to select, for example, 10 audio tracks with the mouse and lower all of their volumes, in one shot, instead of doing it track by track ? I was able to do it in 8.5, but not in X1. Why ?

Yes, hold the control key when adjusting volumes.

-Is it possible to select, for example, 10 audio tracks with the mouse and assign them to the same bus, in one shot, instead of doing it track by track ? Because I can't and I'm loosing a lot of time over this.

Yes, hold the control key while assigning buses.

Last thing: Where are my track colors ??!!! In 8.5, I was able to put a different colors on each track. In big projects, it was extremely usefull in order not to get confused. Why is that great function gone ?

Track and clip colors are in the inspector.

Sorry, this post is a bit long... I am so upset.


Francis

Francis X1 is a completely new animal and there's LOTS of new ways to do things. Groove 3 has a great tutorial that will help with so many details and work flow. WAY worth the money if you intend to learn X1.

What sound card do you have? What are your system specs? All the latest drivers? Are you using Run as administrator when you launch Sonar?

Nice response!