vintagevibe
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 13:53:46
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pbognar
tarsier
I can't recall seeing any major complaints about these functions in Sonar. Are there any?
Oh, yes. As soon as you try to do multiple takes of multitrack material the system falls apart.
Regarding the survey's focus: I suspect that they have plenty of feedback on many other aspects of the program like notation. (lots of forum discussion on that) They know what needs to be done there, they just need to do it. I'm guessing that they felt like they didn't have a handle on everyone's likes, dislikes, needs with respect to takes and comping so they put out a quick survey.
How about a notation questions like:
If you utilize the Staff View:
1) How often do you input or edit MIDI data using the Staff View?
2) Do you use Staff View in conjunction with Piano Roll View?
3) What minor improvements would you suggest for the Staff View?
4) Do you "really" need to print engraving quality scores from Sonar? 
Good questions but... I just wish they would come clean and admit that they have no plans to ever fix notation instead of stringing everyone along.
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tarsier
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 15:52:53
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Tarsier - what do you mean by this? Are you having trouble recording bands etc? Mine works beautifully - heaps of takes over each other etc etc. For single track stuff, I think it works pretty well. but for multitrack stuff, I would say it doesn't work beautifully, it works clumsily. Here's how I've taken to do it: Set up tracks in a track folder to record, say 6 tracks for drums. Save those tracks as a track template. Record a take. Now mute that take, insert another 6 tracks/folder from that template. Record a take. Repeat until we're covered. Now, how to comp the final track together? While at the same time listening to takes in context with the rest of the piece? Or simply isolating takes to listen in solo? I could swipe-select and play selection, but that mutes the rest of the tracks. I can mute other drum track folders to hear sections in context, but it's a two click option of mute/un-mute (or the reverse) to get a take playing and it's a flow killer. I can mute-tool tracks, but as tracks add up, it's more prone to user error of missing tracks. I thought that "group clips across tracks" would be a great solution, but in practice the whole 'selection groups' concept is really cumbersome to me. Besides, it doesn't seem to help at all when choosing a take to play in context. The other scenario is a long form multitrack recording that needs to be edited down. Like a concert. There's a particular bug that causes clips to get fades when they're not supposed to (which doesn't just affect multitrack recordings, it affects everything. It's reproducible, and I've sent it in) and again selection groups are more clicks than they need to be: Click to select, then edit. Why can't they just be an edit group? It's an extra click, and they add up. So it's functional, but not fast, or elegant. Is there a better way that I'm missing?
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LJB
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 16:25:23
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I find tracking drums or any other multisource instrument/ensemble (and I do 14+ tracks for drums plus the rest of the band as guides) works well when you set it to group across tracks automatically and keep all the takes in the same folder/track lanes.
Meaning I don't open a new folder for every take, I just mute that performance and record the next one in the same set of tracks (Sound On Sound). That way I can select any performance by clicking and muting/unmuting just one wave associated with that set of associated (grouped) tracks and even edit all of the stuff in parallel. Drop-ins are also really simple as you just chop and mute what you want to re-record.
Not sure if I'm making myself clear but it works killer, and much better than say Performer where it hides all but the most recent takes. My way also means one set of plugins running, even if you have 10 or 100 takes of drums.
I do the same for all instruments and it makes editing performances from multiple takes really easy. See if this works for you?
Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
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Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za
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backwoods
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 17:34:56
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I didn't get to take the survey but my interest is piqued when I learn it was about audio recording and comping.
I hope Undertow and some of the other cross-platform serious guys got to take it- if Sonar could sharpen up a few little tracking issues it has in comparison to the major audio DAWs it would be awesome.
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thomasabarnes
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 17:49:34
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I didn't get any email for a survey! I'm quite sad about that. :(
 "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant. SONAR Platinum X64 (jBridge), Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 990X Extreme Edition Processor 3.46 GHz 6 Cores, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, Crucial Ballistix 24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, TASCAM UH-7000, Behringer X-Touch, EVGA GTX 980TI Superclocked 6GB, 1TB Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 150GB, 320GB, 1TB 7200rpm HDDs
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bitflipper
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 21:44:26
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I'm just glad it was multiple-choice. Some of those questions were hard. I think I aced it, though...copied off bapu.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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yorolpal
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/04 21:45:50
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He was copying off of me.
And I was copying off of you.
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JazzSinger
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/05 04:14:27
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The last survey was about screen resolution and we all bragged about our multi-monitor 30" WUXGAAAA+ setups.
So they made X1 to use up 20% more screen real estate.
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rbowser
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/05 23:59:04
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tarsier
...Now, how to comp the final track together? While at the same time listening to takes in context with the rest of the piece? Or simply isolating takes to listen in solo? I could swipe-select and play selection, but that mutes the rest of the tracks. I can mute other drum track folders to hear sections in context, but it's a two click option of mute/un-mute (or the reverse) to get a take playing and it's a flow killer. I can mute-tool tracks, but as tracks add up, it's more prone to user error of missing tracks...
You don't need to use the mute buttons in layers - Just do one click and Solo a layer. When you've auditioned a take, move to another one, soloing it - And yes, hear your takes in context with the rest of the tracks you have. But there's no need to click the individual mute buttons. RB
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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tarsier
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/06 10:31:32
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Just do one click and Solo a layer. When you've auditioned a take, move to another one, soloing it - And yes, hear your takes in context with the rest of the tracks you have. But there's no need to click the individual mute buttons. That doesn't work across multiple tracks--unless I'm missing something. That's what we're talking about, multiple takes of multitrack recording.
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tarsier
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/06 10:36:50
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I tried some more methods. Group clips across tracks is a good way to go, but still, auditioning takes is a pain. While you can mute sections across all the groups with the mute tool--which is nice--when you ctrl-click a clip in a layer to mute all other layers it doesn't do it across all the groups. Inconsistent behavior. If it could do that, then maybe I could live with it since then it would be easy to only have that particular take playing.
Any other method to easily audition takes that works for multitrack recordings?
Also, when you record takes in layers, why aren't they layered in sequence? I just did 4 takes of 5 tracks, and they're layered take 2, 1, 3, 4. Garggh.
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rbowser
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/06 10:50:08
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tarsier
I tried some more methods. Group clips across tracks is a good way to go, but still, auditioning takes is a pain. While you can mute sections across all the groups with the mute tool--which is nice--when you ctrl-click a clip in a layer to mute all other layers it doesn't do it across all the groups. Inconsistent behavior. If it could do that, then maybe I could live with it since then it would be easy to only have that particular take playing.
Any other method to easily audition takes that works for multitrack recordings?
Also, when you record takes in layers, why aren't they layered in sequence? I just did 4 takes of 5 tracks, and they're layered take 2, 1, 3, 4. Garggh.
You're right, Tarsier - in my earlier response I was talking about layers, I was moving too fast to see you were talking about using separate tracks instead of layers. You're also right that layers don't stay in the order you record them. But that hasn't caused me any problems because I'm just listening to the different takes, making my selections, and what order the clips are in doesn't matter. The audio tracks I record are usually vocals, and for quite awhile I rebelled against using layers instead of separate tracks. But I finally realized recording in layers in one track is the only way to go - Record is activated on one track, and I can keep doing re-takes as long as I want, and then comp the track together from the layers. RB
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Resort Records
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/06 22:52:30
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rbowser
I'm just listening to the different takes, making my selections, and what order the clips are in doesn't matter.
Ditto. My survey comments recommended that anything to simplify this process will be appreciated. I usually split my layers on the beat or measure and loop each part - yes, my vocals are that unpredictable - soloing each in rapid-fire succession. Where this becomes tedious is in that you must mute the playing clip/layer and then un-mute the next clip/layer, and so on. Unless I'm mistaken, soloing clips and layers is cumulative, so again, you must un-solo the prior clip before moving on to the next. [Am I wrong?] My recommendation was 'something' that allows for single-click 'absolute' soloing. ...and 'something' to more easily label the keepers from the creepers. I may be dealing with 30 takes/layers and am flagging the keepers with clip background color. That's too much work for what could be a machine-gun operation, IMHO. I was pleased that they asked, being that this is, for me, where the real grunt work happens. Granted, I might be making this more difficult than it needs to be. Any recommendations are welcome. Oh, and for those who prefer a longer survey, have you ever suffered through an Adobe Creative Suite survey? OMFG. No tank u.
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rbowser
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/07 01:01:36
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Resort Records
I usually split my layers on the beat or measure and loop each part - yes, my vocals are that unpredictable - soloing each in rapid-fire succession. Where this becomes tedious is in that you must mute the playing clip/layer and then un-mute the next clip/layer, and so on. Hi, Resort Records - Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, the way I did Tarsier earlier - but you're talking about something I referred to earlier in this thread: You don't have to mute a layer, un-mute, ad nauseum. If you're really talking about layers in one track where you've made multiple passes, you just need the Solo button. Click a layer's solo button, all the other layers are muted - and unlike tracks, when you solo a layer, only that layer can be soloed, only one at a time - that's why it's usually all you need instead of ever touching the layer mute buttons. Randy B.
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Resort Records
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/07 02:13:17
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Nope, Randy, you're spot on. My understanding of the layer solos was incorrect - thought they worked cumulatively, like the channel solos. I wish those buttons were a little larger, but this will nonetheless improve my workflow greatly. Thank you for clarifying this for me. Well, that sorta sabotages one or two of my survey comments. "Ner na ner...." It'll be interesting to see if Cakewalk keeps me on their mailing list.  Thanks again! Dave
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tarsier
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/09 10:45:29
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It would even improve things if Sonar would work consistently. They have new improved quick groups in X1, right? So why can't I ctrl-click a solo button in one layer and have all of those respective layers solo in my other selected tracks? That would help with take playing/selection. And yeah, those layer solo/mute buttons need to be bigger. Or... we have the mute tool that will mute sections across tracks with grouped clips. Why not a solo tool? Or call it the "Comp Tool" Maybe that's the ultimate solution: a comp tool that will solo that take/section across all tracks that have been recorded with "group clips across tracks".
post edited by tarsier - 2011/05/09 10:49:06
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Resort Records
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/09 11:50:13
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tarsier
Or... we have the mute tool that will mute sections across tracks with grouped clips. Why not a solo tool? Or call it the "Comp Tool" Maybe that's the ultimate solution: a comp tool that will solo that take/section across all tracks that have been recorded with "group clips across tracks".
Dude! A dedicated "Comp Tool" is an awesome idea. And here, I'm trying to think of how we might work in these specialized mouse behaviors for comping without conflicting with other, basic mouse functions and didn't think of it. I really do need some sleep. So, if the left mouse button solos the clip and, as you suggest, any grouped clips, the right mouse button could perhaps facilitate clip ranking? Maybe you right-click once to earmark the clip a "keeper," highlighting its background color, and again to reset? That would make comping soooo fast in my world. Just a thought. Dave
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LJB
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/10 03:41:48
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One highly annoying thing is that "Rebuilding Layers" scrambles the takes. It would be great to have a Rebuild Layers but Keep (chronological) Order the same kinda option...
Ludwig Bouwer, One Big Room Studios.
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Cakewalk with all the trimmings / Win 10Pro 64 / Intel i7-7700 / Asus Prime Z270k / 16GB DDR4 / RME HDSP9652 / RME UFX / Black Lion Audio ADA8000 / ART MPA & ART Pro Channel / Focusrite Voicemaster Pro / Aphex 107
Check out my work at www.onebigroom.co.za
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Grem
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Re:Best SONAR survey ever.
2011/05/12 10:22:43
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Yes LJB, the rebuild layers is almost useless! I tried it several times and then looked at it and asked WT>? Then hit ctrl-z to put it back like it was. Not what I wanted at all!
Track layers are wonderful. But they need to be more consistent, logical.
And the mute/Solo buttons have got to be adjustable in size. Please!! At the very least, bigger!
Grem
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