vintagevibe
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/26 20:20:03
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konradh
For what it's worth, I do the majority of my arranging in the staff view because I wrote songs on paper before there was such a thing as a DAW and I think in terms of music on paper.
I don't dislike the Staff view at all, but would like to see improvements.
I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned it, but here is my pet peeve: Sonar guesses the enharmonics wrong (in my opinion) almost every time. That's understandable since it is more art than science when choosing B# v. C natural v D double-flat. But here's what should be fixed: you should be able to use Find/Change (interpolate) to fix all the instances at once. I have seen documentation saying this works, but it doesn't.
Tuplets are a nightmare. Editing in general is extremely cumbersome. It's graphically very inefficient as well as a strain on the eyes. Just to list a few... FWIW I wouldn't use the print function at all. I just need to be able to compose.
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yorolpal
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 12:13:15
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Guitarpima
I've come to the conclusion that the people of Cakewalk are not musicians. They may play instruments but they are no musicians. It seems to be the "now thing" to just pump out endless loops of bs slap some crappy meat market lyrics to it and call it music. I guess that has it's place since it seems to be so popular but that leaves out people who really crafted their art.
Bottom line, I'll just keep writing my music in Finale then import the midi into Sonar and go that route. Maybe Cakewalk will get the staff view in order some day?
By posting here (at least as of now) I'm not meaning to "take a side" in any ongoing argument (as I haven't read the entire thread yet) BUT...you must've never heard any of Noel Borthwick's guitar work, ol pal. He is a very accomplished jazz player and definitely a musician of the first order. Can't speak for the rest but I bet there are others too at Cake central who would qualify even under your conditions;-)
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konradh
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 13:05:16
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Here is one case in which I use the Print Staff function, although it may not apply to many people. When I arrange a song, I record the melody (lead vocal) and harmony parts on some generic sound (like a Rhodes) for two reasons: 1-teach the singer the parts while listening to the track and 2-use the MIDI notes to control a TC-Helicon VoiceWorks Plus or other device/plug-in, if needed later to correct or augment the voices. (And even for songs I've written, it helps to hear the lead sometimes while arranging.) Then I print the parts. Even if the score quality isn't great, it helps the singer perform harmonies (and that's important since I use some odd and complex vocal harmonies). This is way better than all the work I did back in the day copying these down by hand. I have never been completely happy with everything about any instrument or software I've ever bought; but, if it's pretty good and works, and I think, "OK, here's what I've got. How can I make the most use of it?" Doesn't mean I don't get frustrated, but I know that if I trashed what I had and bought something else, I'd just get a different set of problems. I thought long and hard about upgrading to X1 or going to Pro Tools and I think, for me, staying with Cakewalk was the right thing.
post edited by konradh - 2011/05/27 13:10:50
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vintagevibe
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 13:38:40
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yorolpal
Guitarpima
I've come to the conclusion that the people of Cakewalk are not musicians. They may play instruments but they are no musicians. It seems to be the "now thing" to just pump out endless loops of bs slap some crappy meat market lyrics to it and call it music. I guess that has it's place since it seems to be so popular but that leaves out people who really crafted their art.
Bottom line, I'll just keep writing my music in Finale then import the midi into Sonar and go that route. Maybe Cakewalk will get the staff view in order some day?
By posting here (at least as of now) I'm not meaning to "take a side" in any ongoing argument (as I haven't read the entire thread yet) BUT...you must've never heard any of Noel Borthwick's guitar work, ol pal. He is a very accomplished jazz player and definitely a musician of the first order. Can't speak for the rest but I bet there are others too at Cake central who would qualify even under your conditions;-)
True. I've ****ed a LOT about notation but I have a high opinion of the Cakewalk people. It's rude and in error to attack them personally.
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subtlearts
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 13:58:26
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Not to mention in extraordinarily bad taste.
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Susan G
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 14:42:11
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Hi konrad-
Just wondering if you saw my post about enharmonics (#29). I'm curious to know if it still works the same in X1 or is in fact broken.
Thanks-
-Susan
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subtlearts
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 16:55:00
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Seems to work here using Process -> Find/Change, as per the manual. Doesn't seem to work using right-click Interpolate, which I think is what konrad was using?
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Susan G
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 17:13:16
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subtlearts
Seems to work here using Process -> Find/Change, as per the manual. Doesn't seem to work using right-click Interpolate, which I think is what konrad was using?
I just downloaded the demo, so I'll have a chance to try it both ways in a bit. Thanks for checking! -Susan
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subtlearts
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 18:26:58
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Yeah it seems to work consistently with Find/Change... however, whoa, what a clunky interface! Classic... definitely powerful, but not particularly user-friendly for the kinds of things people are likely to want to do a lot... just my first thoughts anyway, I never really used it before. Interestingly I just had occasion to use it a whole bunch in a transcription project and, ummm, is it just me, or would it be really nice to be able to change all Ab's rather than all Ab3's? I had to switch octave twenty times while working through the whole piece (there are a couple of key changes)...
I ran into some very odd little graphical bugs along the way as well, it just got very confused and started leaving bits of windows strewn about, and also lost the Tools HUD entirely... eventually it required a restart of Sonar, but on the bright side it didn't crash or lose or corrupt and data or anything. Small blessings...
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Susan G
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 21:13:39
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subtlearts
Yeah it seems to work consistently with Find/Change... however, whoa, what a clunky interface! Classic... definitely powerful, but not particularly user-friendly for the kinds of things people are likely to want to do a lot... just my first thoughts anyway, I never really used it before. Interestingly I just had occasion to use it a whole bunch in a transcription project and, ummm, is it just me, or would it be really nice to be able to change all Ab's rather than all Ab3's? I had to switch octave twenty times while working through the whole piece (there are a couple of key changes)...
I ran into some very odd little graphical bugs along the way as well, it just got very confused and started leaving bits of windows strewn about, and also lost the Tools HUD entirely... eventually it required a restart of Sonar, but on the bright side it didn't crash or lose or corrupt and data or anything. Small blessings...
But you can -- just use a "?" after the note name in both dialogs, eg: Ab? instead of the octave number (Ab3, etc.). I just tried it both ways (right click/interpolate and Find/Change) and it works fine here. The spelling might not change in the PRV hover, but it definitely does in Staff View, and I think it does for note properties as well. -Susan
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konradh
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 21:59:53
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Susan, Sorry I had missed your post earlier.
In Find/Change, I will put B#4 in the Search and C5 in the replace and it will not fix all the instances. Let me mess with it and see if I can get it to work.
Speaking of note numbers, almost every VI I have numbers notes two octaves off from Sonar. For example, C0 in Kontakt, EastWest, Vienna etc. is C2 in Sonar. Not a problem--just a quirk.
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Susan G
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 22:04:32
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Speaking of note numbers, almost every VI I have numbers notes two octaves off from Sonar. For example, C0 in Kontakt, EastWest, Vienna etc. is C2 in Sonar. Not a problem--just a quirk.
The "Base octave for pitches" setting is under Customization > Display. You can change it there. There's no universal middle C octave # -- I think for Yamaha, for example, I changed this setting to -2. -Susan P.S. Oh, and don't use the octave # in Find/Replace. That's what I've been trying to say -- use a "?" as a wildcard instead, so in your example, use B#?, not B#4.
post edited by Susan G - 2011/05/27 22:10:17
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Dave Modisette
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/27 23:08:46
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Just to clarify my previous post, I am interested in improving Staff view for the purpose of inputting midi data and not desktop publishing which (i feel) can be done much better in other programs.
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RnRmaChine
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 00:42:52
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+1 for a more refined Staff View.
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Eyes
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 00:52:15
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As usual, +1 for staff view.
Even if X2 or whatever is next doesn't have alot of magical features, basic upgrades to make things function more logically and continously would be nice. Like having a separate value for note insert length and grid snap. I have submitted FR's for a few things, but doubt anything would be done unless Cakewalk decided to actually upgrade notation entirely.
Maybe it is worth making a list of basic upgrades at the least, people would like to see in notion in X2.
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subtlearts
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 04:18:02
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Susan G
subtlearts
...is it just me, or would it be really nice to be able to change all Ab's rather than all Ab3's? I had to switch octave twenty times while working through the whole piece (there are a couple of key changes)...
But you can -- just use a "?" after the note name in both dialogs, eg: Ab? instead of the octave number (Ab3, etc.).
thanks for that, that's a huge help. I'll have to look at the manual entry again to see if that's in there - quite possibly it is, I'm a dreadful manual-skimmer and often don't read the whole thing once I find what I'm after - making this an object lesson: if I'd known that yesterday it would have saved me a bunch of clicks and hassle. If it's not in the manual... well, it really should be. I just tried it both ways (right click/interpolate and Find/Change) and it works fine here. The spelling might not change in the PRV hover, but it definitely does in Staff View, and I think it does for note properties as well.
Strange, I tried it both ways yesterday and Interpolate was doing nothing in staff view. Again, I would say there's a good likelihood of user error though... Anyway, I still feel it's not the most elegant or informative or user-friendly interface I've seen, but it does seem pretty powerful, so I'll take the good with the bad...
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riojazz
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 11:08:53
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I thought this was just a question of priorities, according to Cakewalk comments made along the way. They said they are aware of what needs fixing in the Staff View, and I believe that. They said they haven't highly prioritized this particular fix, as it would require a major coding effort at this point, but they intend to do it. I believe that, too, and have encouraged them to do so. If we need to do anything, it is to continue to respectfully show Cakewalk that there are enough users who want Staff View to be improved to warrant this fix being made a higher development priority.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit. Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch. Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 12:49:04
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If we can't get Sonar to have a greatly improved staff view, is there a way to improve how Sonar interacts with other notation apps such as Sibelious and Finale??
Right now, working between Sonar and Sibelius requires tons of busy work, especially if you work scoring to picture.
I'm currently working on a 10 song project that will have a live orchestra in many spots. It will be composed and sequenced in Sonar, but i'm not looking forward to creating the Sibelious files for the score.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 13:02:35
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Jimbo 88
If we can't get Sonar to have a greatly improved staff view, is there a way to improve how Sonar interacts with other notation apps such as Sibelious and Finale??
Right now, working between Sonar and Sibelius requires tons of busy work, especially if you work scoring to picture.
I'm currently working on a 10 song project that will have a live orchestra in many spots. It will be composed and sequenced in Sonar, but i'm not looking forward to creating the Sibelious files for the score.
I gave up on that. It's a total creativity killer. I have Sibelius and Notion. A big problem is neither one sends MIDI over firewire.
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rbowser
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 13:54:00
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Jimbo 88
If we can't get Sonar to have a greatly improved staff view, is there a way to improve how Sonar interacts with other notation apps such as Sibelious and Finale??
Right now, working between Sonar and Sibelius requires tons of busy work, especially if you work scoring to picture.
I'm currently working on a 10 song project that will have a live orchestra in many spots. It will be composed and sequenced in Sonar, but i'm not looking forward to creating the Sibelious files for the score.
The problem is notation programs interpret MIDI data so literally. You might have a fixed-up version of a piece done in Sonar, with hard-quantizing, editing of note-lengths etc - but it's still a mess when first imported into Sib. That's where Sib's plug-in routine "Simplify notation" comes in handy. Run an imported track through that, and it goes a long ways to making the input legible. Another side-note - Mention was made on this thread about the infamous tuplet problem in Sonar. Using the Quantize options of 8th note triplets, 16 triplets etc often, but not always, re-notates how triplets are displayed in the Staff View. Randy B.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 14:32:56
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Hey Randy--
Thanks for the "Simplify Notation" plug-in heads-up. I did not know about that one.
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Susan G
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 17:10:36
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Hi subtlearts- thanks for that, that's a huge help. I'll have to look at the manual entry again to see if that's in there - quite possibly it is, I'm a dreadful manual-skimmer and often don't read the whole thing once I find what I'm after - making this an object lesson: if I'd known that yesterday it would have saved me a bunch of clicks and hassle. If it's not in the manual... well, it really should be. You're very welcome.  It is actually in there, in the Process-Find/Change topic, but I had to hunt a bit to find it. I remembered it from the "old" Process > Interpolate days. Oddly enough, there's no mention of "interpolate" at all in the Help file -- using the full Search returns "No topics found". I wonder why the right-click menu still uses "interpolate" -- I guess they just overlooked that. IMO, they should change it to Find/Change to be consistent, since it brings up exactly the same dialog as Process > Find/Change, which is definitely a more user-friendly way to put it. -Susan
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rbowser
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Re:Beating A Dead Horse: The Staff View in X1 (To the Sonar Programmers)
2011/05/28 17:24:30
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Jimbo 88
Hey Randy--
Thanks for the "Simplify Notation" plug-in heads-up. I did not know about that one.
Hey, good deal, Jimbo. It's under the Plug-in main menu tab. I can't get to my Sib at the moment, so can only be a little sketchy on a few things - but I know there's a group of Plug-ins towards the bottom of that menu that I use a constant basis for cleaning up MIDI. Move a single note to the other staff is a good one. Change the staff split on a measure-by-measure basis if needed. The dialogue for the Simplify routine, the one I use the most, always gives you options dictated by your selection - like if you want Sib to quantize to a 16th, 32nd, 64th, and if you want it to detect triplets or not. After running that routine and others as needed, the vast majority of MIDI editing in Sib is done for me. Go check it all out. Randy B.
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