Tripecac


Wow, thanks for the info!  Lots of good tips there.

I definitely intend to learn the articulations and tweaks for each instrument, but first I need to decide which packages to invest time in learning (e.g., Kontakt seems a better investment than Square I), and also how to set them up in a template so that I don't have to mess around with synth and effect routing for each song.  Right now that's a major roadblock for me.

For example, you mentioned that you send the Kontakt's Classic Bass to Guitar Rig 4 Bass Pro.  I have several questions about that:

1) Is the Classic Bass in a Kontakt instance by itself, or does it share a Kontakt instance with other instruments?  

2) If it shares an instance, then in order to get Guitar Rig to apply to the Classic Bass patch, you need to route Classic Bass to its own audio output, so that you can have a dedicated audio track in Sonar; is that correct? 

3) Where do you put your audio track relative to your MIDI track in the track view?  Are they right next to each other, or do you have separate MIDI and audio folders? 

4) Do you automate volume and pan on the MIDI track or the audio track?  Or both?

5) Does your default Sonar template already have the Classic Bass -> Guitar Rig routing setup, or do you have to manually add it for each song?

Thanks!

p.s. I found a way to switch to the 64-bit Guitar Rig Pro - thanks for the tip!

1: The "classic Bass" is a single instrument but of course it will need it's own audio output/track. So you can treat it like a real bass. This is where it is important to load Kontakt via the "Synth Rack" in Sonar. You would choose either Kontakt 4 "8 out", "16 out" or the plain version which is all the possible outs, and it's a lot of outs so if I do use it I am often deleting a number of the tracks sonar created once I determine how many I will actually need. I often bounce between the 8 and 16 depending on genre. I have a default setting for each version so I don't have to assign K4s outs to mach the tracks in sonar every time I load it. Once you get them assigned properly make sure you check the "make this my default setting" in K4. That window appears when you "add a new out" inside K4 itself. I RARELY use K4s internal FX such as compression, EQ, reverb, etc... But do not overlook them just because I rarely use them. They are quite good and I do find them invaluable from time to time.

2: Yes, that is correct. Let's say you load the "Classic Bass" as the first instrument in K4. Obviously the MIDI assignment will be 1 and it will default to the first output. Ignore the 4 aux busses unless you plan to make "blended tracks" and possibly use them to send into a reverb for a room sound. IF you do this be sure and compress and EQ as if it is an actual room mic recorded track. Which is a VERY good trick at making your mix sound real... and ... you're welcome hehe (refer to answer 1 for additional info on K4 outputs.)

Just in case you need this info... example: Load "K4 16 out" Click on "Output" at the top middle of the K4 window and add 3 more channels (2nd button over from the left top of the newly opened window.) Assign each new channel to the next set on the list. For left and right. Even if you plan on using mono channels for some of the instruments. Now you have 4 stereo main outs and 4 stereo aux outs. IF you want to use the bass as a MONO channel then make the Sonar track it has output to... a MONO track. That works best for me. Also, you can have 2 tracks (even more if you want) input that same out from K4. Thus having 2 identical bass tracks. One could have GTRrig4 on one and the other could be treated as a DI track. And blend them that way. Which is a common thing done in studios. Common as far as having a DI signal and a extra track with an amp recorded.

3: Ok, when I start a new project and I am NOT using any drums within K4, I will load a drum softsynth, (for example, of session drummer) and a 8-16 K4 depending on how many instruments I will be using with K4. I always have them in their own "folder". You choose this option when you "Insert Synth" into the synth rack. BUT when I am building the bass guitar and drum tracks I move those 2 MIDI files next to each other but still in their own folder. I do this even if I plan on playing real bass guitar to it. Because I MIGHT change my mind and decide to use the K4 bass guitar.

4: I do all automation on the audio part. In other words, the track the bass guitar is output to. All main FX such as compression/limiting and EQ on that track, all sends to busses, etc... My MIDI track will only be doing the velocity changes I actually played, including anything with MOD wheel and or expression pedals. WIth the classic bass, those aren't needed really. The main this for that realism is how you play the velocities or set them and just as important. Setting up the FX just as if you would a real recorded bass guitar. SO if my desire for softer volume is because I am playing softer... that will translate as if it's a real person playing it. BUT if I am lowering the volume slightly because I want something else to dominate that part of the song. Then I will use the audio track with an envelope... as if it was being mixed AFTER the fact of being recorded. Dynamics are very important though so be sure and use the classic bass properly. IF you notice, the highest velocity setting on the K4 classic bass has a nice pop to it but once you drop to 95 it has less top end (not plucked so hard) but is still very loud and thick with body. Actually a bit thicker then going over to 96 and up. Be sure and use the muted and slide notes far up the keyboard. Those coupled with "solo" mode on the instrument itself can make for a pretty convincing bass track. Now, I couldn't find a MIDI switch to turn solo on and off. So I will sometimes use 2 and up to 3 instances of K4 classic bass. First will be the main, second will be solo, third and if more would be different "stop" choices.... again not simple, but sent into GTRrig4 and Compressed/Limited and EQd properly can sound extremely real. It's not really any more work then a real bass is though.

5: I do have saved projects that will start as templates. I did the work loading my main softsynths and routed them. I then saved the project as "Rock Drums Bass" for example. SO when I start a new project I simply open it and then re-save it into a properly named project folder. I don't use the templates as often as one would think though. I have MANY softhsynths and will find myself wanting to just start a new project and do the routing as I see fit for the particular project.

Obviously you have Session Drummer 3, Battery 3, and the other kits in K4. Mix and matching those make for some very nice, realistic sounds. Mess with the K4 stand up (upright) as well. Very nice sounding for certain bluesy genres. imho.

Glad to see you got the 64 bit GTRig4 up and running. Also, Dim Pro does have some really good sounds. They just don't compare to more expensive libraries, although you can make some very realistic sounding strings if you mix K4 and Dim Pro. The reverb you choose/use will have a lot to play in the realism as well.

Good Luck!!

Rob

Mixing MIDI is akin to mixing while tracking. We all do it to some extent, but we're also aware of its drawbacks. I do MIDI compositions in two distinct stages, first manipulating MIDI exclusively and later working just with audio, just as you'd hold off mixing in an audio-only project until tracking was complete.

In the first stage I only automate only MIDI and don't touch the audio tracks at all.  I try to get a rough balance using MIDI volume automation, no panning. Once I've done about all I can by monkeying with MIDI alone, I bounce the synths and archive the MIDI tracks.

At this point I can treat the project as if it were audio-only and MIDI had never even been part of the process. This is where the real mixing begins, just as if I'd just completed tracking live audio.

The exception to this procedure is sequenced drums, which get tweaked continuously from beginning to end of the process.

Not saying this technique would work for everyone. There would be little benefit if, for example, you're doing all-MIDI classical orchestration rather than mixed live audio and virtual instruments.

I posted about audio routing, grouping, and midi+audio phases in a more appropriate topic, which is here: http://forum.cakewalk.com...39&mpage=1#2321864

I've never tried Waveform Preview - thanks for the tip!

I notice that in order to get the previews to appear I need to play in real-time.  Is there a way to force all tracks' previews to generate quickly, so there is no need for real-time playback?

Hi Tripecac,  I can't add much to what's already been said, but I do have a few suggestions that haven't been mentioned yet.  Like you, I prefer the "real" instruments: drums, bass, guitar, piano, organ, sax, strings, etc.  Which is kind of funny because I'm a keyboardist and you'd think I would like dabbling with all the synths.  I use to, back in the 80's, but it seems these days I'm going back to the basics of the typical "rock band" sound.

Anyway, here is what I use in the majority of my songs.

•  Toontrack's Superior Drummer II (I like the Music City USA, NY Allaire, Avatar and Hit Factory kits, plus the Latin Percussion kit). The best sounding drums in it's price range!
• Kontakt 4 - used to be my "go to" sampler, but now I am finding I'm drifting towards other samplers, such as:
• RealGuitar2 - Fantastic sounds. I love the chords.  I can't play chords on a real guitar to save my life.  This program is perfect for me.
• RealLPC - Combined with AmpliTube3 or Guitar Rig 4 makes for great electric rhythm or lead guitars.  Again, fantastic sounds!
• Dimension Pro - I'm finding that I like the bass guitar samples on this better than Kontakt.  More choices, more versatile.
• Native Instruments B4-II (which unfortunately they stopped making this line and moved to Vintage Organs, which IMHO doesn't sound as good as B4 II.  In the 80's and 90's I searched for a good Hammond/Leslie sound for years.  NI's B4 II is the Holy Grail that I finally found!
• Kontakt has a 3rd party plugin called New York Concert Grand - that's my "go to" piano. It comes with several variations of pianos.  There is also Cakewalks own True Pianos which isn't that bad either.

I know a lot of these VSTi's do not come with Cakewalk (as you asked) but I thought it would help to hear a variety of what different people prefer to use in their arsenal and why.
I hope my 2 cents gave you another few ideas to think about.  Good luck!

You guys seem to really love rapture. I haven't played with it much. I only have the LE version but I will have to mess with it now.

+1 to Superior Drummer 2 it is quite good.

I like Kontakt very much but sometimes I get stability issues as well... it's hit or miss with it... it seems like. I haven't used it much in 64bit though. I only recently moved to Win7 64bit and bought x1 slightly after. So I didn't work with 8.5 in 64bit much.

Different, and surprisingly good. A sleeper hit of X1.

I think the SI ones included are the only ones.  They seem to use the same engine as the other Rene Cake synths (SFZ, anyway), but specialized.

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