For me the biggest category would be seeing what state certain functions are in, which used to be on a tool bar, but now are only in a menu or dialog. For example, to see the auto-crossfade state: used to be 0 clicks, now is at least 1.

Also another metric that's important to me is mouse distance. Changing a clip name is still the same # of clicks (3 if your clip pane isn't open), but in 8.5 you could do it all in the same general area (right click, properties, dialog is centered), and in X1 it's all the way over to the left, and you have to hit the "Clip" box. Honestly I'd like it if there were more keybindings for moving around in the inspector, that would speed some things up.

but does anyone really describe a keystroke as 'clicking'?

Depends on the keyboard. my laptop keyboard clicks, my desktop keyboard doesn't.

FastBikerBoy

If you open 8.5 with a dbl click it doesn't select all notes and in X1 it does which forces an extra click to undo...

TBH Keni I no haven't opened 8.5 for so long I don't know this for fact but I'm pretty sure the double click in 8.5 doesn't select the clip. The problem with X1 is that the double click selects no matter where the smart tool is in the clip.

Now that is a valid complaint and IMHO something that shouldn't happen. That's a different complaint to the fact that all the notes in a selected clip are selected. That I would expect. It's inaccuracies in what actually happens that weakens many of the arguments.

So someone says opening the PRV selects all notes in the clip. It doesn't, the problem is the double click selects the whole clip. If the claimed problems are inaccurate the real problem never gets fixed and that's why I think it's important to be accurate.

I've already put in a FR for that as well BTW.

You're quite right regarding why it selects all notes... I'm just stating that it should not! A single click selects the clip, a double click is set to open the PRV, not select the clip... So there's a bit more accuracy as well...

I know that what you say is what's happening, I'm saying (again, sorry) that it should not!

I've had many issues with posts here due to semantics and while I know it is important, I think that in the spirit of getting to the need, we try to read between the lines a bit with what people say... We're not all blessed with eidetic memory... ;-)

So we try to correct each other when we see it in the hope of helping each other... Isn't that what the forums are for? I'm not here to be at war with anyone and I'm only too happy to ignore posts that fan flames when I can... ;-)

Forgive me my old age... I once had a better memory and command of words...

Keni

SteveStrummerUK

Keni

SteveStrummerUK


 
Save is now File>Save

I'm surprised you weren't directed to use Ctl-S so that you can do it in one... 

I use Ctrl+S all the time Keni, the question didn't ask what we preferred
 
 
 

Gotta use the keyboard tho....

 
I know it's only semantics, but does anyone really describe a keystroke as 'clicking'?
 
Left-click/Right click etc - it's a mouse-related word shirley?
 
Unless there's a manual out there that says something like 'click on Ctrl+S'
 
John T will help me out, he's big on pedantry.
 
 
 

Hi Steve...

I'm trying to steer clear of all the semantic issues...

I need BOTH... Sometimes using kybd+mouse is fast and handy, other times it's clumsy and difficult...

Click/keypress... whichever... It's a matter of how easily I get my work done and it got harder in many ways for me with X1 and does not have to be that way even allowing everyone to have the new X1 features they so love...

Sonar is still Sonar... That's why they didn't change the name to a new product... The GUI and many related issues are simply a new skin...

Keni

FastBikerBoy

Skyline_UK


Opening PRV view - 8.5 opened with a default of no notes selected, X1 opens with all notes selected (ludicrous) and you have to click in a space somewhere to get to no notes selected.
One extra click!  QED.

John

More mis-information. The PRV opens with all notes selected if you double click a MIDI track hence selecting the whole track/clip. Why on earth would a selected track not have all the notes selected, there'd be yet another riot on here if you selected a track and none of the notes were selected.

If however you don't select the whole track, but just make it active and then press Alt+3, open PRV no notes selected, as expected.

 
Well, let's have the whole story.
 
(i) In 8.5: double click with no notes selected (track selected or not) is how it worked.  That was convenient, sensible (you opened the PRV to work on a note or set of notes so why on earth would you want all of them selected?), and I don't recall any complaints about that modus operandi.
(ii) "make it active (one click) and then press Alt+3 (one key depression or two?)"  How on earth is that as easy to do as just double clicking on the track??
 
A simple double click versus one click and one/two key depressions?  Sorry, I can't even call that a draw.  
 
 

Skyline_UK

FastBikerBoy

Skyline_UK


Opening PRV view - 8.5 opened with a default of no notes selected, X1 opens with all notes selected (ludicrous) and you have to click in a space somewhere to get to no notes selected.
One extra click!  QED.

John

More mis-information. The PRV opens with all notes selected if you double click a MIDI track hence selecting the whole track/clip. Why on earth would a selected track not have all the notes selected, there'd be yet another riot on here if you selected a track and none of the notes were selected.

If however you don't select the whole track, but just make it active and then press Alt+3, open PRV no notes selected, as expected.

 
Well, let's have the whole story.
 
(i) In 8.5: double click with no notes selected (track selected or not) is how it worked.  That was convenient, sensible (you opened the PRV to work on a note or set of notes so why on earth would you want all of them selected?), and I don't recall any complaints about that modus operandi.
(ii) "make it active (one click) and then press Alt+3 (one key depression or two?)"  How on earth is that as easy to do as just double clicking on the track??
 
A simple double click versus one click and one/two key depressions?  Sorry, I can't even call that a draw.  
 
 

Yes let's have the full story......... you missed this later post...........

If you open 8.5 with a dbl click it doesn't select all notes and in X1 it does which forces an extra click to undo...

TBH Keni I no haven't opened 8.5 for so long I don't know this for fact but I'm pretty sure the double click in 8.5 doesn't select the clip. The problem with X1 is that the double click selects no matter where the smart tool is in the clip.

Now that is a valid complaint and IMHO something that shouldn't happen. That's a different complaint to the fact that all the notes in a selected clip are selected. That I would expect. It's inaccuracies in what actually happens that weakens many of the arguments.

So someone says opening the PRV selects all notes in the clip. It doesn't, the problem is the double click selects the whole clip. If the claimed problems are inaccurate the real problem never gets fixed and that's why I think it's important to be accurate.

I've already put in a FR for that as well BTW.

You're right I wouldn't call it a draw either.

John T


The thing about this is, sure you can scratch around and find instances where something takes an extra click or whatever, but on the evidence here, they're hardly the labyrinthine workflow killers of legend, are they? I mean, that thing where all the notes are pre-selected in a clip, that's some trivial stuff right there.

Yeah, yeah, I know "Just because it's trivial to YOU doesn't mean blah blah". It doesn't wash. Anyone who can't get work done because of that couldn't get work done anyway. The aphorism about a bad workman's view of his tools is starting to look very apt around here lately.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you're not supposed to go there. We have to assume that every difficulty someone has is first and foremost down to Cakewalk's incompetence, and not their own. Well, that doesn't wash either.

An installation that crashes all the time, sure, I've got plenty of sympathy for that. Clearly, there are some configurations out there that aren't working too great, and you can certainly make the case that Sonar can be unforgiving on this front.

But this "OH MY GHAD THE NOTES WERE PRE-SELECTED" stuff, really, knock it off. What a load of wind. We're being asked to believe that some people are such fine tuned workflow ninjas that they can't get anything done in the face of these changes. Well, I don't claim to be a ninja, but I've got absolutely shedloads done this year. Quite possibly the most productive year for audio work I've ever had, in fact.

Obviously, I'm not doing it "right".

John T you have become my hero.

John

John T you have become my hero.

Bless.
 
 

Consolidation time.

I do believe the count is at 2.

Changing track icons & checking status of the autocrossfades....

I'm beginning to see why it's unusable.

When I first started working with X1 I was (at first) somewhat stymied by only two things.  One was my inability to learn to use "D" to close the PRV.  I had always closed the PRV before by clicking the little x in the upper right hand corner of the view.  When you did this in the new X1, of course, it threw up the "do you really wish to close Sonar" dialog.  Can't tell you how many times I cursed that dialog before finally teaching myself the new way...old habits die...but they die hard.  And, second, the fact that when I entered the PRV all notes were selected and I would forget this and go to edit a note a hear the gawd-awfulest clang come from my monitors.  Again...I finally learned to avoid this (mostly...I still to this day forget sometimes and am rudely awakened to reality yet again) and like John T alludes above it is no "showstopper".  But this particular new feature of Sonar does continue to puzzle me as to why it was implemented.  Although some (few, really) had said they prefer it this way it still seems most folks are, as I am, somewhat baffled as to how this could be an improvement...why you would want this to be the default setting...and what was wrong with the old method that it had to be changed anyway.  It's no biggie.  But it does seem a solution in search of a problem.  Perhaps there's yet another thread that might have more traction for the never ending "old versus new" debates.  Forget about objectivety altogether and just have a thread on:  What seems just plain dumber in X1?  I bet that would be a barn burner.

To be fair, I think you should have to count the total number of clicks and modifier or hotkeys it takes to perform the function AND to get back to what you were doing before.

X1 would have an unfair advantage there, 'cos with the right screensets the answer would always be one or maybe two - one there - one back.