So I think this is probably not widely applicable, but I'm not going to knock someone for trying to share information they think might be useful to others.

No neither am I, it's just the way the OP was termed that makes it sound like it's some sort of universal problem, that's why I thought he was joking. Then as thanks came in I wasn't sure whether it was sarcasm or genuine, or perhaps I was missing something such as working with loops (as in musical loops) which I rarely use. 

FastBikerBoy

So I think this is probably not widely applicable, but I'm not going to knock someone for trying to share information they think might be useful to others.

No neither am I, it's just the way the OP was termed that makes it sound like it's some sort of universal problem, that's why I thought he was joking. Then as thanks came in I wasn't sure whether it was sarcasm or genuine, or perhaps I was missing something such as working with loops (as in musical loops) which I rarely use. 

+1 



Tought it was a joke as i never got a dropout on my loop ....maybe because i engage and disagage the metronome after stoping the playback (this is my default setting...

What appears is some have this problem and other don't. What can not be in dispute is that Freddie is sharing his solution with the X1 community. Somehow I don't see a down side to that.

bigboi


I don't think anyone is knocking Freddie for the help.  As  a matter of fact, he should be praised.  Too much negativity around here these days.

On the flip side, I think that the frustration arising is due to our DAW failing in some of the most basic areas....including the audio engine.  Here is the funny part of it.....until recently, I had never even given a second glance to another DAW.  When X1 was released, I had so much trouble ( I had a grammy award winning songwriter sit through 2 crashes, and then ask me why I did not use a mac......NOW THAT BURNED ME UP) that I bought Studio One Pro.  WOW.  I never knew how unstable the audio engine was in Sonar until using Studio One.

But....like most everyone here, my heart is still with Sonar....even if much of my production in the studio is not.  I read the forums daily....and wait for the release of the next version...hoping for basics like gapless audio and vst3.  To be honest....it was totally disheartening to buy Studio One in its first release and have it outperform my tried and true Sonar in many ways....oh well.

For the record....this is not a bash.  I own the v-studio system (audio interface and controller).  Audio interface works great with Studio One....controller is around 50%.

...agree...  about all points......  

...Freddie should be definitely praised...   

...like your experience, recently, due to the  dissatisfaction caused by some of X1's aspects,  I've been working a lot with Samplitude, which I had mainly been using for its huge Audio Editor features previously.... ...well, the feeling was the one you described.... not a glitch, not a gap, never a drop out....    

...I've also been evaluating the "newbie" "little" Reaper... again... no glitches.... even when inserting a new Synth in project full of tracks in real time action....!
...it even playes MIDI notes starting past their "note-on" message position in the timeline... astonishing....!!! 

...yet, SONAR is STILL in my heart, for its editing features and its "uniqueness", although Cakewalk seriously attempted to that with X1's "revolution".......  
...not to mention the money invested through the years...
 
...I'm trying to be positive in the waiting for the next release... it will be crucial..................     


 

wow.  i can't believe how much trouble people are still having with X1.   I do not get dropouts during looping- not even when adjusting loop points. 
But to read these threads is freaking me out.
I'm not a newb and I use at least 80% of sonars functionality (audiosnap, vvocal, automation, vsti, etc)  but i rarely have any issues.  I hope it's not as bad as it sounds.  I don't want to switch DAWs.

brundlefly

I do not get dropouts during looping- not even when adjusting loop points. 

This might depend on your definition of "dropout". AFAIK, everyone  can reproduce the gaps in audio when adjusting loop points. The transport doesn't stop, and there is no "dropout indication, but the audio is interrupted adjusting the loop point.

... yeah... how on earth Cakewalk didn't fix that through all these years is something beyond any possible explanation....... 

... the best DAW with such a trivial, long time present flaw...........   

monleo


Thanks a lot Freddie! I moved over from Cubase (SX2) quit a while ago and my major annoyance with Sonar is its inability to loop without gaps. I purchased a sophisticated DAW and still see the problem: when looping for quit a while (studying a particular piece) the engine suddenly stops. Sometimes even Sonar crashes. I tried out the workaround of Freddie and it solves a least this problem. Base on my experiences I conclude: 1. The better your DAW is (CPU/memory, etc.) the less problems you have with this phenomena 2. The workaround of Freddie works only for repeatedly looping a particular piece and not for e.g. moving markers. 3. I never suspected the metronome to cause particular stability problems but I have to agree that Cakewalk should investigate this. 4. I often smile when I read Freddie’s posts. I was reluctant to try it out but because of my annoyance with this problem I finally gave in and experimented. 5. Freddie, continue to give your advice. Forget the nasty responses you got from some people. Your post opened my eyes and probably the eyes of a couple of other Sonar users. (Hope Cakewalk also…) Leon

I have been trying to open peoples eyes too! It amazes me that we get so stuck in the rut...When I try other DAWs its like a breath of fresh air. It makes me realize how powerful my PC is...then I try Sonar and...well you all know the story.
 
C'mon Cake we all know that you are better than this...They need to take their own sweet time over the next upgrade whatever that will be called? Hopefully, not X2.
 
I think Studio One will be coming bigger and better seeing that they have a good pedigree.
 
So I'm hoping it's not the death of CakeWalk but the death of the Shambles we call X1 (Xperiment 1)

>>Yet the blind fanboi's keep defending it to the death and meanwhile I'm really starting to question my loyalty after 15+ years now.<< I spent time last year trying out various options, and did not upgrade to X1 (first time skipping an upgrade since 1998, I believe).

I have Reaper 4.02 and think it's a very interesting program (great engine), but after a lot of research went with Studio One Pro. Also a great engine, very intuitive workflow, much simpler. And frankly, I don't miss most of the "bells and whistles" of Sonar. In fact, I now realize they kind of get in the way of a faster workflow.

But to find out for yourself, you have to be willing to really "get in there" and try out a program. Reaper and Studio One might not fit your workflow, and if that happens, stay with Sonar; it is a great program overall.

But frankly, I am shocked that certain problems just never get fixed; instead, we get Beatscape and other non-essentials that just pile on to the existing code. I agree with the Bub's comment that a rewrite of the engine code is really called for. Sonar feels creaky compared to the others.

I don't know about X1 but in 8.5 you still cannot switch tracks in a seamless manner while in a record loop.  Freddie's tip does nothing to change this situation. This is with the metronome on as well. I have tried it again recently still without success.

Studio One still handles this way better and perfectly with only up/down arrows and the record shortcut key. Its one thing to loop on a stationary track but another to be able to freely switch tracks all while in record. And going in and out of record.

I am talking about midi and virtual instrument tracks too when I refer to this, not audio tracks.

The way the clips are left after the track switch in Sonar is bad. You still have to fiddle with the mouse and record arm lights and stop at some stage to get clips to remain. You cannot do it all in Pro Tools. Sonar sort of attempts it but it ends up a mess usually.

Can some X1 owners out there do a test for me. Set up say three tracks with virtual instruments on them, eg drums on one, bass on another and piano on a third. Set up a 4 or 8 bar loop from any bar to any bar number. Put metronome ON. Arm the drum track put into record and each time it loops add an extra part eg hats, kick snare, some extra percussion bits etc.

Then without touching anything and while still in record somehow get off the drum track and onto the bass track. (Use only Up/Down arrows to do this) All drum parts should remain behind now and the moment you press a key you should hear a bass sound. Dont play yet.

Wait till loop comes to start, play bass part. (You can do this all in Am)

Now, without stopping somehow get out of record with only one button push. (no mouse allowed) Change down to piano track and reherase. Should be hearing drums and bass now and piano of course because you on that track now. All without a glitch. When you know what to do, with one button push get into record. (no mouse allowed) Wait for loop to come start and start playing piano part.

While still in record, switch up to the drum track again (only using Up/Down arrows) and add a cowbell on every beat. Come out of record and listen to what you have done!

All of the above should happen without glitching and perfect looping of all music. Studio One can do it with ease. And not only that you can drag out another virtual instrument, audition presets all while looping and playing and then when ready with one record button push go into record again and record the new part and then jump back out to play. And while still looping, you can drag any effect over any of the virtual instruments and tweak them all on the fly. You can go into the browser of course, audition loops and drag them all out while it loops perfectly too.

Brandon has shown that Sonar is up to that stuff which is great. It is the track switching I love doing. I know not all work this way but I love doing it this way now and it is one of the best creative capturing processes around.

If X1 can do this I for one will be very impressed and will buy it tomorrow.

Jeff Evans


Before this post disappears into the dust completely, any takers for my test idea? Lets try out Freddie's approach plus I would not mind knowing if X1 can do what I am suggesting. I suspect not and that is why this has been a deal breaker for me.

Hi Jeff

I've just tried what you've suggested on my system which is a bit long in the tooth now, see my sig for specs. I used Session Drummer 3 for drums and TTS-1 - Channel 1 for Bass & Channel 2 for Piano. I don't have a great array of Soft synths, I use mainly hardware and I guess that'd be cheating if I used that.

Results - Well I think I might have witnessed the MIDI crosstalk bug I've seen mentioned before because while it was looping it seemed some notes had somehow got recorded on one of the other tracks - even though there was only one track recording at a time They hadn't actually been recorded as when the I stopped the transport and played, everything was okay.

It also seemed to record the piano while I was rehearsing and without a track armed for recording. I mean I could hear the piano while looping when I wasn't playing even though it wasn't recording.

I can't get it to drop out like that how and aside from the strange MIDI routing issues it played and recorded without glitching. I was using my MCU to switch tracks and arm/disarm recording.

I tried dropping a synth in while looping and it didn't appear to do anything. It looked as if the synth went in to the TV, the cursor was a + icon when I dropped it there but nothing else seemed to happen. No drop out, but no synth either.

Having said all that I do occasionally get drop outs while moving loops while I'm comping but I didn't try to move the loop in this case. I'm going to have another look when I get time to see if the strange MIDI routing was my incompetence but I don't think it was.

Hope that satisfies your curiosity - I don't normally work that way though - which looks like it may be a good thing.

I have just finished a demo for the Film Scoring Expansion pack for Rapture and it is here: http://soundcloud.com/jeff-evans

Nice demo Jeff.

Thanks again  Karl  for doing the test again. Basically this is the same sort of behaviour the happens in 8.5 which means they have basically not changed anything here. It is important too to not use the mouse at any time during this test and only switch tracks and go in and out of record using the qwerty keyboard and the reason for this is to be able to keep one hand on your music keyboard while doing all this so you are ready to play something new as soon as you have switched tracks etc..

FastBikerBoy

So when it involves external harwdare it is not so much of an audio engine issue but rather a sequencer issue in terms of being able to switch tracks in full flight while in record and looping

Hi again Jeff. I've just tried this again using hardware. I set an 8 bar loop and had 3 MIDI tracks set up.

The first was outputting to one of my drum machines, the second and third to different channels on my SOnic Cell, patched to Bass and piano respectively.

The loop recording channel switching part isn't an issue, but MIDI going awry most definitely is. It's bizarre if I record drums as you suggested, switch to bass and record that there's no problem. Unarm all tracks and play along with the piano, it's almost as if the piano is being recorded onto the bass track but with a piano sound.

I can hear what I've already played as it starts to loop, even though it's not recording. It is also definitely coming back from the bass track because if I mute that track it stops. Unmute and it starts again. If I stop the recording the only data present on that track is the bass. If I record the piano it does record onto it's own track but this ghost playback is coming from the bass track as before. They are on separate channels, input echo is set to active track only besides which if that was the problem I'd hear the bass sound doubled with piano.

It really is very strange but the loop recording is rock solid here no matter how much I chop and change tracks or drop in & out of arming tracks.

Having said that it is almost unusable because of the MIDI routing, which I'm fairly certain isn't user error.

Can anyone else confirm this behaviour?

All I could confirm here was that I'm not proficient enough to follow the instructions given....