Meters clipping

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full_bleed
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December 08, 11 5:26 PM (permalink)

Meters clipping

If I rip a wav from a CD and import it into my project to use as reference I always have to pull the fader down on the track or it will constantly clip. I double check that the trim is set flat and there are no fx inserted and no other channels are feeding into that track either. I've played with several different meter settings to no avail. Is anyone else experiencing this? Can anyone suggest meters setting that are working and are accurate for you? Obviously it's impossible for a commercially produced CD(s) to actually be clipping in this manner. On the typical I have to pull the fader down 3-4db to eliminate the clipping.
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    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 6:17 PM (permalink)
    What program are you ripping it from. Sometimes the ripping conversion can cause some overs.

    Also, what meters are cilipping? Is that track routed to your master bus? Or is it routed to your main outs? It should go right to your main outs to avoid going through your master bus effects

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    #2
    full_bleed
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 6:33 PM (permalink)
    Hey CJaysMusic, I typically use windows media player to rip but I have used nero with the same results. I have tried routing it both to the master and to the mains. In both cases there is clipping at the track and at the master or mains.

    Could it be a calibration issue from my audio hardware?
    #3
    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 6:41 PM (permalink)
    if you convert to mp3 while ripping (windows media player does this I think by default), the mp3 often will boost levels slightly, which could cause clipping very easily-

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    #4
    full_bleed
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 6:44 PM (permalink)
    Lanceindastudio


    if you convert to mp3 while ripping (windows media player does this I think by default), the mp3 often will boost levels slightly, which could cause clipping very easily-

    Lance


    I only rip to Wav
    #5
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 6:59 PM (permalink)
    full_bleed


    Hey CJaysMusic, I typically use windows media player to rip but I have used nero with the same results. I have tried routing it both to the master and to the mains. In both cases there is clipping at the track and at the master or mains.

    Could it be a calibration issue from my audio hardware?


    Try another CD

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    #6
    full_bleed
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 7:01 PM (permalink)
    CJaysMusic


    full_bleed


    Hey CJaysMusic, I typically use windows media player to rip but I have used nero with the same results. I have tried routing it both to the master and to the mains. In both cases there is clipping at the track and at the master or mains.

    Could it be a calibration issue from my audio hardware?


    Try another CD


    I've tried it with about 30 different CDs. I only had a few that werent constantly clipping but even those few did periodically clip throughout a given song.
    #7
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 7:07 PM (permalink)
    I can rip 30 songs and maybe have one that clips here and there.
    So I really don't know. I was going to say pan laws, but i don't think its that.
    Sorry,
    Cj

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    #8
    full_bleed
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 7:24 PM (permalink)
    CJaysMusic


    I can rip 30 songs and maybe have one that clips here and there.
    So I really don't know. I was going to say pan laws, but i don't think its that.
    Sorry,
    Cj

    It's worth a shot. I'll give it a go and see if that makes any difference for me. I can't remember what I set it to at the moment. I thought pan laws only affect + or -db, if any change,  on export from the daw...? Perhaps I should re-read on that.
    #9
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Meters clipping December 08, 11 7:37 PM (permalink)
    Yea, it is, especially when there's nothing else to try. Pan laws do effect playback levels, but i don't know the full story behind it. Its complicated.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 4:21 AM (permalink)
    I wonder if the OP is actually seeing clipping on his mains, or if it's just peaking at about -0.1dB.

    Sonar's meters can be a little ambiguous to the inexperienced, sometimes what looks like clipping isn't!

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    Rothchild
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 10:37 AM (permalink)
    Are you ripping to .wav or to a compressed format?

    If it's the latter then the chances are that the cds are mastered to peak just below 0dbFS and that the codec is introducing intersample peaks.

    Really interesting lecture here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhA7Vy3OPbc

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    #12
    Karyn
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 11:27 AM (permalink)
    It could be that the CD was mastered to 0dbfs and the meters are  calculating inter sample peaks and lighting the clip led when there is no actual clipping.


    If you're worried by it, record the master bus (with zero/unity settings) and do a null test against the orriginal file.

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    #13
    evzevz
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 12:32 AM (permalink)
    Going out on a limb here, does your soundcard have a separate "manager" program - one that allows you to monitor direct inputs? On my MOTU, I have cuemix console, which allows me to do this. I discovered that if I don't turn off the input channels (basically all my available inputs) in Cuemix I will get clipping even if nothing is coming thru those inputs, some sort of summing issue I guess. Anyhow, what you are describing reminds me of this. Of course if you need to monitor inputs you re-enable them when needed.
    #14
    brundlefly
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 12:33 AM (permalink)
    Hit O on your keyboard to enter Offset mode, and make sure Gain and Volume are at 0dB.


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 3:14 PM (permalink)
    Hey full_bleed this is just a matter of the rms levels being high on a mastered commercial CD compared to the internal reference levels that you are working at inside your DAW during the mixing/tracking phase.

    There may not be any actual clipping on the commercial CD and the levels might all be at -0.1db but when you rip this into a wave file and bring it into your session, then the high rms levsls will do two things. One is make the track, buss and master meters show very high values and even look as they are clipping. Also the volume will be very loud compared to the level of your mix.

    So it is just a simple matter to lower the level of the playback from the reference track. Either using the trim control right at the top of your channel or just lower the channel fader. By how much? Well I work often at a stardard of my rms levels being at -14 db or in the case of the K system K -14. I have found a lot of commercial CD's will be somewhere around -6 to -7db instead of -14 so trim your gain down by 6 or 7 db should put the reference track close to your nominal operating level of your session.

    Later when you master, you make the -6 or -7db ref level to be the ref level and then your mix will be that far short. (Because you have now lowered the ref level of your system)  and during mastering you will raise the level of your mix by about that amout so that it matches the commercial CD.



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    full_bleed
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 7:05 PM (permalink)
    There truely is clipping happening.

    Yes, I am ripping wav and not a compressed format. Completely lossless.

    I completely disable my pc soundcard so that there are no potential issues with hardware conflicts.

    No software mixer for my audio hardware.

    Yup everything is zeroed out. I checked that a billion times along this all the routing in the projects.

    I'm not talking about the precieved loudness or RMS level. I'm specifically referring to the meters going over 0db with the fader and trim at zero with no other sources feeding into that track.


    With all this said I played with pan law, and all other elements untouched. There was no change at all so I returned it back to default... Walked away frustrated... came back and fired up sonar again and like magic it's not clipping anymore. It still hold the peak meter when a track hits 0db but it's not going over anymore. I'm still not sure what the heck was going on but I'm sure glad it corrected itself and I hope it doesn't uncorrect itself.

    Thanks for everyone's suggestions and ideas!


    #17
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Meters clipping December 09, 11 7:43 PM (permalink)
    Send me one of the wave files. Ill check it out on my sysytem for you.
     
    Nevermind, i read your last paragrapgh and you figured it out


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Meters clipping December 10, 11 3:08 PM (permalink)
    full_bleed quoted this in his first post: Obviously it's impossible for a commercially produced CD(s) to actually be clipping in this manner. Well sorry to tell you but many commercial CD's clip 0 db FS regularly so that is incorrect. They shouldn't but they do.

    The only way to really check this out is to rip the CD in question and open the wave file inside an editor such as Adobe Audition or Cool Edit Pro. You will then see what is really going on. Now on many commercial CD's of course the maximum level will reach a certain level eg -0.1db or even a lower level than that and then you won't see one clip but I have also found some that just smash 0db and that is that and of course in that situation you do see clipping indicated.

    I used to limit to -1 db and wondered why some go so close eg -0.1 db and I found that the extra 0.9 db would you believe is noticably louder! So they do it to just extract that extra level again. By hitting 0db FS it means they might be just pushing for some extra level again which if course is senseless as we all know.

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