Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates

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Audiounity
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2011/12/17 10:45:18 (permalink)

Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates

So, here it is more than a year later and I can feel the cold wind blowing. No new updates, it seems that even Cakewalk reps no longer want to venture into these lonely backwaters to promise "great things to come" which was the word one year ago. I want to upgrade to X and. wonder if I will encounter constant headache if I do. I do wish cakewalk would support the VS system. We all invested much money in it. Which brings me to a realization. I am swearing off any piece of kit that relies on a computer. I will only buy gear that can work standalone. An MPC 3000 or a TR-808 can still make music more than a decade (or two decades) later. Some computer interface (SCSI) from 1999 wouldn't fetch 5 dollars on ebay. I wait for akai to make an MPC 6000, instead they make Iphone plugins and controllers. All that can be obsolete within 5 years. I am powerless but in a way, I am standing up and saying enough is enough. I want reliable standalone hardware that integrates with a computer as a plus, not as a critical feature. That way my investment will last 20 years. If cakewalk has dropped the VS and its support, within 5 years it might not even integrate with computers or Cakewalk 17 or whatever. It's sickening and shameless, by all companies. 
*Gets off his highhorse*
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16 Replies Related Threads

    Audiounity
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/18 19:05:56 (permalink)
    I think I just saw some tumbleweed blow by in this forum.
    #2
    Dyonight
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/18 23:21:33 (permalink)
    We're all speachless....
    #3
    Grent
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/19 06:43:08 (permalink)
    I always read: "We don't read the forums that much." Well ... why is that? It's not, that the amount of posts in the VS-700 forum is overwhelming ...
    #4
    Mully
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/19 07:46:47 (permalink)
    Have to come clean here... I've started reading the PT10 reviews! Alright, it's out there and I've now come clean... it has been a looong and patient journey... what we currently have is VERY usable but yes it is feeling a bit lonely... and the whole issue is feeling old . It's been long enough now to say the V-Studio is not looking like it will be optimized for X1 and beyond.. even the update in the front end for the V-Studio area of the forum (here) still refers to X1b.. now that surely tells you something? Anyways... it is still a good bit of gear but as soon as it appears to lose manufacturer support, I will be jumping off while the platform still has some market value. Not to sound like a doomsayer and let's keep our fingers crossed... for a little longer... maybe?
    post edited by Mully - 2011/12/19 07:51:22

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    #5
    Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/19 12:44:47 (permalink)
    Hi Friends,

    I got a few PMs and just caught wind of some of your concerns. I apologize for not hopping in sooner. I'm replying to this forum thread only since it seems to be specifically on topic, but I want to touch on a few things I've read recently in various other threads.

    For starters:

    I just want to put to rest any concerns that VS-700 development has been put on the backburner in favor of EUCON support. This is definitely not the case. SONAR has never only supported the VS-700, so extending our support to some other really nice control surfaces I would hope to never be perceived as a bad thing. While EUCON support might not benefit any VS-700 owners directly, it is something that was requested by other users and I'm happy to see finally supported for SONAR X1 and 64-bit SONAR.

    Secondly:

    We do have an update in the works for SONAR X1 and SONAR X1 Expanded. The reason for lack of information is that we don't have an exact timeframe for release yet. We're hoping for Q1 of 2012, but we're still working out the details so we don't want to make empty promises. As usual, when we get more information we'll be happy to update everyone to let them know of the exiting news.

    Thirdly:

    I know it's frustrating to see certain areas getting updated while your particular favorite features are not getting fixed/updated/enhanced, etc. Try not to forget that we do have different teams that work on different aspects of our products, so just because a new Control Surface Plug-in comes out from a third-party, or a new ProChannel module comes out doesn't mean the VS-700 is being ignored or forgotten about.

    By the way, I don't personally monitor our Feature Request form, but I have not seen any Problem Reports come in regarding VS-700 issues specific to SONAR X1 or SONAR X1 Expanded for quite some time.

    Are you folks running into any issues?

    I know there are some new features in X1 Expanded that still need to be updated for the VS-700, but the VS-700 and SONAR X1 are highly functional together. SONAR 8.5 owners, if you didn't catch wind of this, the SONAR X1b update did provide a lot of enhancements for X1 owners. Read more details here: http://www.cakewalk.com/support/doc.aspx?DLID=951

    At the risk of creating more work for myself, if you have any features that are not working currently with VS-700 and SONAR X1 functionality, let us know via the Problem Report Form. It's the only way to make sure we know about what you're experiencing.

    Thanks everyone,

    Ryan Munnis
    Cakewalk
    #6
    Mully
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/19 18:32:24 (permalink)
    Hey thanks Ryan for your input... it really does make a difference to us sensitive and creative types. It's the old story every time something takes longer than we expect and we do have high expectations. Issues should definitely be reported I have to agree... none here to report as faults but I for one am certainly keen to see some integration update in preference to work on other platforms but obviously the commercial realities will always take precedence. Cheers.

    ASUS H270, i7-7700, JLM BA & 1290, LA2A Opto4, loads of guff.
    #7
    bentedgz
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/20 14:08:31 (permalink)
    Thanks for the reply Ryan, I put in a feature request a couple of weeks ago for full support of X1 Expanded. 

    Didn't mean for the posts to sound "****y", just feelin' like our award winning flagship product from 2010 hasn't been getting much love in 2011. I'm just missing the level of integration I had before upgrading to X1.

    Thanks 

    EJ 


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    #8
    timboe
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/21 06:51:52 (permalink)
    Ryans post was good  *but* no matter how they try to integrate the VS700c controls with X1 it will be a  " finger nightmare ".

    With the introduction of the P/Channel, the number of buttons and permutations to get the VS700C controls to " use "  the X1 P/C will be enormous.

    The *only* way to achive this will be to have  " multiple-connected-key-strokes "  ie:  things like   Button A + Button B + Button C + Rotary A  just to turn the Threshold up and down on a Comp in P/C ...... and on top of this, no matter what they do, the hardware-labelled buttons will never match the X1 controls  [  naturally I'm not talking about basic things like Vol / Mute / Solo  etc... here  ]

    The above *is* the reason this next update is taking soooooo long .......... can you imagine if you are the poor sod that CW asks to integrate X1 into VS700C ..... there simply is no way to easily or logically do this that does not involve using multiple-finger-key combinations ...... and frankly, this defeats the point of a controller.

    If I had one of these and was planing to stick with 8.5 I'd keep it and make music.

    If I am looking to go to X1 - or any other software - Id sell it now whilst you can still get some money for it.

    The fundumental problem is that the 700C was designed and built and labelled for 8.5.

    Then X1 came out and  8.5 was out the window.

    No amount of " updating "  can  " X1-ize "  the 700C.

    Ryan is talking about " hoping " for Q1 2012 - that says it all.

    This is  [ was ]  a flagship product to put CW / Roland into the same ball-park as  P/T for small / medium studios .... it didint - it hasnt - it wont.

    No matter Ryans best intent and wording, it has been abandoned for so long that it just doesnt matter any more.

    If I had one, and was wanitng to move-on from  8.5  to any other DAW, I'd cut my losses now and move on.

    Tim
    post edited by timboe - 2011/12/21 06:56:03
    #9
    Crg
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/21 07:04:07 (permalink)
    It's already quite complicated when you factor in the VS700C's functionality in topmost window mode with plugins and synths. If you use the Fantom Synth for instance, the control access panel section changes per page quite a bit. Synths like Z3TA+ and Rapture are quite complex in how they respond also. So it's a learning curve for nearly anything your going to control with it. You can't just build a new surface for each one, nor can you re-write every peice of plugin and synth software to conform to the hardware.

    Craig DuBuc
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    Dyonight
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/21 10:17:22 (permalink)
    I agree with both Timboe and Crg here.

    The console will always have limitations for X1 concerning total integration. It will be unintuituve control and the labels won't match, as they most already do.

    But, as Crg said, every software used in Sonar, or any other DAW, need customisation before being used, so this surface still have everything we need to make it work.

    The most cool thing, which I don't think will happen, would be a prochannel hardware controller add-on. Usable stand-alone and with the VS-700.  That would permit complete re-integration with X1, I think.
    #11
    Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/21 14:02:08 (permalink)
    Hi Friends,

    I appreciate the feedback. I personally have nothing to do with the actual design and implementation of the VS-700 other than relaying what I'm hearing from customers and my personal opinions about the state of things. I'd like to take off my "Cakewalk hat" (it's actually a Bruins hat) for a moment only because  I am curious about something and I wanted to risk sharing my personal thoughts.

    Let's forget about SONAR X1 Producer Expanded for a moment. ProChannel modularity is new to Expanded and the VS-700 doesn't deal with it correctly. We know about this, so for a moment let's just ignore that aspect.

    With that being said, in regards to SONAR X1 versus SONAR 8.5, what is not working in X1 for VS-700 users? Why are statements being made that the VS-700 doesn't work with SONAR X1, can't be made to work with X1, and that it did work better with SONAR 8.5? Do VS-700 owners using SONAR X1 feel this way? Aside from a few labels (which only made sense in a very small context of the application) what about the VS-700 doesn't match or jive with X1? I'm just curious. You guys can tell me.

    We've gotten some feature requests and the occasional bug report, but if people feel the VS-700 and SONAR X1 are not functional together, they're certainly not telling us about it via our web forms nor in the countless conversations we've had over the phone directly with users. Even this thread doesn't specifically list things not working in X1 (other then what I already hit on with Expanded). From what I can discern, all but one of these suggestions have nothing to do with the unique version of SONAR you are using.

    Initially with the release of SONAR X1, the biggest problem was that the Channel Strip Control section, specifically when put into EQ mode, was originally mapped to Sonitus: EQ in SONAR 8.5's channel strips. Obviously SONAR X1 replaced the channel EQ with ProChannel EQ. The other big problem was the ProChannel couldn't be ACT learned, so you really couldn't manipulate ProChannel from the VS-700C. This was a loss of control and at the time it totally made sense why X1 users felt they lost some functionality. It really was a bummer because everything else could be controlled via ACT but the new ProChannel. Aside from that, some new features such as the MultiDock weren't mapped to the surface so there was no gestures for controlling them.

    So, while some new features (ProChannel, MultiDock) weren't mapped to the surface, the rest of the functionality from SONAR 8.5 was still there in SONAR X1 and for the most part on track.

    In any case, we wanted people to be able to control the ProChannel EQ, Compressors and Tube Saturation from the surface as well as some of the new functionality.

    SONAR X1b, allows you to do that. SONAR X1b introduced quite a lot of functionality for X1 users with VS-700Cs. The ProChannel is mapped to the surface, and can be re-mapped using ACT if you desire. If you don't like our chosen layouts for the controls, you can even create your own arrangements for the controls. Some devices do not even allow that much. ACT is a really powerful tool, and the VS-700C does some cool things with it. Backward compatibility was also kept for controlling the Sonitus: EQ.

    My honest, personal opinion is that after spending a little bit of real, hands-on time with the X1b document explaining the new functionality, I feel it is implemented quite well considering the complexity of SONAR and the size of the surface and limited number of physical controls. I don't find myself wanting to return to SONAR 8.5 because I can't do something with the VS-700C in SONAR X1 that I used to be able to in SONAR 8.5. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some more integration as well, but my thoughts have nothing to do with "I can't do this in X1 but I could in 8.5".

    Also, the LCD screen can be programmed, and has been, to deal with differences in labels between different plug-ins. Even in SONAR 8.5, the Channel Strip Control section is only sometimes used to control an EQ. In 8.5, outside of controlling an EQ, the printed labels mean nothing and the LCD means everything. If you are using ACT to control a different plug-in, you cannot rely on the printed labels. This is the same in 8.5 with any plug other than Sonitus: EQ as it is in SONAR X1. The only way the VS-700 could correctly label every control  in SONAR 8.5 or SONAR X1, would be if it was a LOT larger. Personally, I'd rather look at an LCD then across a 15 foot desk.

    In any case, I'm really not sure where the statements suggesting SONAR X1 has been abandoned came from other then the sound of a few crickets since Samara's last post regarding X1 Expanded. A big part of SONAR X1b was updates and enhancements specific to the VS-700. Our support team is still here and we still speak daily with customers using the VS-700 with SONAR.

    Expanded is new, and we're aware of some things we would like to address.  I understand that the VS-700 isn't perfect and that there is ALWAYS room for improvement in everything we do.

    What I don't understand is after X1b, and now a hint at a future update to Expanded, the opinion that the VS-700 can't be made to work with SONAR X1. We're talking about a few labels for physical encoders that were printed to match 8.5's EQ section that also had multiple purposes. SONAR 8.5 and SONAR X1 have much more to them then an in-line EQ, so if that is all the opinion is based off I have to respectfully disagree.

    Anyhow, I'm not trying to convince anyone to upgrade to X1 or a VS-700 but rather just trying to figure out why some people are reluctant to go from 8.5 - > X1. What specifically are you basing your opinion on that makes X1 seem scary? Aside from some of the new functions of Expanded, the implementation is already there.

    Anyhow, thanks for reading if you made the time. You folks are always a pleasure to work with and I always appreciate the feedback you give.

    Ryan Munnis
    Cakewalk
    #12
    e.Blue
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/21 17:20:02 (permalink)
    Thanks for the post Ryan.

    For the record not every VS-700 owner is feeling abandoned. I'm happy with the console even if they don't make any more improvements to it. Being hung up on the printed labeling thing is a sure sign that someone is not very familiar with using the console. Regular console users understand that once you open any other plugin besides the Sonitus EQ, you have to ignore the labels and use the LCD display anyway, as you mentioned. It's never been a big deal for me and I've gotten so used to doing it that I couldn't tell you what the labels on the console say even if I wanted to. 

    In the case of certain other SONAR users, this is not the first time that they have come over to this forum to stir things up even though they don't actually own the VS-700. I think they must have some irrational need to validate their choosing NOT to buy the product.  
      
    -e.B


    post edited by e.Blue - 2011/12/21 17:31:59

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    #13
    Grent
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/21 18:27:57 (permalink)
    I think the VS-700 vs. Sonar X1 is not that big of a deal. It's just often used as sign to strengthen the thought of abandonment. Abandonment is felt because of lack of improvements in the first place, I guess. The X1 thing is just a 'frontman'. I feel there's so much potential and so much more could/should be done. There are so many reserved button combinations ... :)
    post edited by Grent - 2011/12/21 18:30:05
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    timboe
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/22 05:19:11 (permalink)
    Hi Ryan !

    Great post - genuine, honest, to the point !!!!

    As I see it, the issue is not that that the VS700C wont work with X1 - clearly, to varying degrees of utility and simplicity, it can.

    The issues are that:-

    - the 700C was designed ground up for 8.5 yet within only some ~ 12 / 14 months or so, X1 re-wrote the whole interface
     .....  how this was allowed to happen is simply staggering ...  seriously this is just mind-boggling !!
    - knowing that the X1 re-write was coming, imagine if the 700C had been held-back and writtren ground-up for X1 - the result would have been a Control Surface that would have been fully " X " series compatible for many years to come
    - as it is, getting the 700C and X1 to integrate simply will require many, many convoluted button / rotary combinations and even then you will have numerous  mis-assigned knobs / rotaries
    - the whole point of a DAW Control Surface is to make DAW useage more fluid, quicker, as eyes-off as possible and 1:1 control-to-action functionality

    No matter what is done, the 700C simply cannot achieve the above anymore.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Roland have already "orphaned" this product - Rolands history is littered with products like this - at the end of the day, they majority own CW and they design and build the hardware - all CW do now  [ no belittling intended ]  , is write the programs / software.

    X1C came out on Aug 3  and it is " hoped"  that the  700C will get an update in Q1 2012  -  7 months late for the flagship product ..... enuf said.

    Tim
    #15
    Dyonight
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/22 09:16:25 (permalink)

    Thanks a lot Ryan for comming in!

    Your observations are exact and I clearly see what's making you wondering why we are never happy!

    I am one of those using X1c (not expanded but I look farward to upgrade) and there's no big deal regarding integration and functionnalities.

    The main problem is not that things don't work, the thing is that we fear that since X1 was designed without the VS system in mind (which was obvious since prochannel - day 1) gradually it will become more and more unintuitive to use with future update.

    Hey, we know you will succeed to implement the expanded features in the VS but the main problem is:  since the developers of X1 don't work with the VS in mind (which is normal since the VS is only ONE of the numerous products Cakewalk support), the team assigned to the VS (poor guys...) will always have to "catch back", so they wil never be able take the VS to a new level, by adding the functions we cry for since the VS is born, for example.

    By buying the VS-700, we thought we would become VIP member in the Cakewalk familly and that this product would always have the edge.  X1 was a clear proof that this won't be the case anymore  and a hard one to swallow. We understood at this moment that we will be an after-thought and that the VS won't ever be pushed beyond it's current capabilities but will always have to catch up with what is availible in Sonar.

    Another point is the speed that can be reached with X1 and the mouse/keyboard.  I think the X1 thing would have been less a big thing if speed related short cut would have been implemented. Editing, select, drag and drop, browser, prochannel, smart tool, in fact the whole list done in this thread are all ideas to make it happen but I can't hope it will happen because the VS team is already overloaded with keeping up with basic updates.


    What about releasing Sonar with an already integrated VS plugin? Probalbly too hard to achieve on a scheduled time (Roland  pressure to get things out?.....) and this is what is frustrating. All this potential burried forever.


    I know everyone make what is possible and I'm not aware of your deadlines or marketing plans but the main complain is not being able to have the edge again by implementing new functions.


    Remember this is NOT a rant or whatever, just a clarification of why I think we feel pushed aside.


    Thanks a lot for taking time with us and let's have a great holyday time!
    #16
    Mully
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    Re:Thoughts and Sadness about Lack of Updates 2011/12/24 04:38:04 (permalink)
    Good reading and good summary IMO Ryan... personally I think the answer is a customizable surface for the 700C. If we can assign controls as we see fit to suit our personal workflow, the race is won. X1 is certainly more complex as proven by more frequent use of keyboard and mouse and using the surface for some simple tasks can be tedious but I believe the ability to customize our surfaces to suit our own preferences would end the debate.... I wonder if it is a 'doable'? ...oh and for the record, the PT10 thing is out of the running just on costs alone... doesn't compare price wise at all let alone features. Cheers all and Merry Christmas!

    ASUS H270, i7-7700, JLM BA & 1290, LA2A Opto4, loads of guff.
    #17
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