Rus W
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/11 02:49:32
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MP3ISTHEDEVIL
I don't know if I'd call it a "law," but if you're asking if this happens with most if not all DAWs, then I would think so!
No, This is an actual and intrecal part of mixing in Sonar6 as well as previous models.
Open Sonar and follow these steps.
Options/Audio/General Tab/Stereo Panning Law
Options displayed for selection are as follow-
0dB center, balance control
0dB center, sin/cos taper constant power
-3dB center, sin/cos taper constant power
0dB center, square-root taper constant power
-3dB center, square-root taper constant power
-6dB center, linear taper
I personally use 0dB center, balance control as it functions more like a balance control.
And as you can see the others implement mathematical equations.
These "panning laws" are not all that uncommon and are used on some high-end mixing desks.
It would kind'a surprise me if they where not used on 6+ versions of Sonar.
(Ive been known to be wrong on more than one occasion however).
If you have a minute and have the inclination you should take a peak and see whats going on there.
The difference between settings on one of your mixes might really blow you away.
Let me know what you find out ! : )
MP3ISTHEDEVIL
I see. I mispoke.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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Del
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/11 09:43:57
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AT
If you have a stereo source, be sure to use the channel tools instead of pan. It is a balance knob and LRC will often lose part of the stereo sound. The Channel Tool is much more precise, too.
@
AT, thanks for this information! 
post edited by Del - 2012/09/11 09:45:02
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Del
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/11 09:47:38
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And thanks to all who have contributed to this very important subject! 
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dcumpian
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/17 15:14:57
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Slightly off-topic; does anyone know how to get a sound to sit precidely in a spot in the soundstage? For example, I'll be listening to a well-recorded CD and occasionally will hear a brief accent float right in the middle (or any point, really) of the soundstage. I have often wondered what technique is used to do that. Doesn't seem like simple panning to me.
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/17 19:18:12
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dcumpian
Slightly off-topic; does anyone know how to get a sound to sit precidely in a spot in the soundstage? For example, I'll be listening to a well-recorded CD and occasionally will hear a brief accent float right in the middle (or any point, really) of the soundstage. I have often wondered what technique is used to do that. Doesn't seem like simple panning to me.
Regards,
Dan
Dan, is there a way for you to give me a sample of what you're talking about? If I THINK I got this right, you basically hear something leap out at you within a mix...but it doesn't sound like a simple panned instrument, correct? If I got it right, the answer(s) would be there is most likely an effect on that sound so that it has a bit of dimension to it. For example, we can pan something down the middle that has a stereo effect on it and then eq the stereo effect or phase it so it still sounds down the middle but picks up a mid-side stereo type effect to it as well. For example, let's say we have a vocal panned down the middle. In a part of the song, there is a deep vocal that says the words "you lose" that is different than the lead vocal. We want this "you lose" thing to stick out and not just be a deep voice down the middle. So we may put a stereo chorus on the sound with an imager that will control how wide or how crazy the chorus will sound on the voice. We may eq that chorus and then put a reverb in it with some pre-delay to enhance it more. It's amazing how eq can alter a stereo sound (and mind you, we're just eq-ing the effects here...not the voice eq) and then the stereo imager can place it where you want it as well as make it stick out a little more. If the voice just had a stereo effect on it, it make look and sound like this: (note the (()) stands for the effect being sent from side to side. The word "vocal" in the middle stands for center pan.) Left 100%((((((Vocal)))))Right 100% With the imager and all the right processing, that vocal may look and sound like this: Left 100%((((((( (((Vocal))) )))))))Right 100% So we pick up "more than just a pan" when we do things this way. The same when you pan something to the side. This is one of the reasons I have always been against LCR panning. To me, it exhausts the hard pan fields leaving nothing else. The coolest thing is when you hear something creep in from the hard left/right sides to me. The reason it has more impact is because the entire mix was created without using hard pans. So when you hear something there for the first time, it leaps out at you. That said, the same can be said for mixes that use LCR. You have the "in between" pans to bring in special effects which is also cool. But to me, there is just something really cool that happens when something hits from the hard left or right side for the first time in a mix that doesn't have a bunch of hard left and right pans. The impact is just better to my ears. Anyway, I hope this answers your question somewhat. :) If not, I'll try again. LOL! -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/09/17 19:21:03
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dcumpian
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/18 08:46:54
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Hi Danny!
Yes, that's what I'm asking about. I hear it on lots of different CD's and, like you say, it is used as s.p.i.c.e. (got caught be a filter, I guess) Some really good examples can be found in Peter Gabriel's "Us" CD and several of Tori Amos's, particularly "To Venus and Back".
With stereo sources (like synths), is it better to record as mono (feed L + R to one channel), or use the Channel Tools to narrow the stereo image? I actually felt like I had better control of stereo sources when we used to use separate L and R tracks. I may go back to that someday...
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/18 09:00:32
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If a synth either hardware or VST offers a stereo output you must record it in stereo. It is a sin to not do so. You are missing out on an amazing world of imagery that can be setup so well within many synths. I have got a hold of a Roland JD800 at the moment and you should hear the stereo in that baby. If you don't like what you hear for what ever reason then you can use plug ins like Channel tools to re set the image the way you want it. I had a Korg Wavestation that had some very wide patches. They were flipping phase and doing things like that in order to create the effect of some extra width etc. It was only in a few patches. Someone at Korg was trying some tricky programming in probably the effects section. It did not collapse well down to mono. In the end I think I inserted a phase reversal on one side and brought the image in slightly using channel tools and it was way better. It still had a grand image but sounded great in mono. Due to the image now being so robust and yet still great in stereo, I was able to lower it down by a mile in the mix and you could still hear it very well. Maximum illusion, minimum voltage. None of that could have been done if that sound had been captured in mono. Because it collapsed so bad so if the patch had simply been mono-ed it might not have worked out nearly so well. Stereo interleaved tracks are easy to set up and it is not much effort to capture any instrument in stereo. Ambient pads often feature some creative panning. (Emulators allow you to modulate L-R panning of every voice within a total patch over its own range of panning with a sep LFO speed for every voice, touch response can effect all the panning options as well. You have got to hear something like this to believe it!) A lot of synth effects processors are great and very advanced allowing you to add/enhance the great stereo that is already there with all sorts of imagery later to a patch. Organ patches always make use of the stereo spread as do electric piano patches. Many samples are just plain recorded in stereo and sound great. Synths like Alchemy make use of the XY pad for incredible moves within the stereo image. Kurzweil patch layers can all be effected, panned and be moved dynamically.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/09/18 09:25:25
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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dcumpian
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/18 09:08:53
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Jeff Evans
If you don't like what you hear for what ever reason then you can use plug ins like Channel tools to re set the image the way you want it... That's what I'm currently doing. I'm just struggling with a mix right now and am second guessing what I've done. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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gustabo
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/19 19:29:56
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digi2ns
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/20 09:12:43
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Really learning here but I have a question.
For the small (16x20) home room studio, what is the better way to check/verify choices in panning?
Using monitors or head phones?
I tend to mix by monitors but find getting a good grasp of the panning is better through the cans. Is there a preferred method of doing it or is it by accepted figures printed out. I assume different songs will call for different pans.
MIKE --Dell Studio XPS I7/870 2.93 Ghz, 8GB Mem, 2-2TB Barracuda HDs, 500 GB Ext.HDD, Win7/64 --X1 64 Pro Expanded, Dual 21" Monitors --PCR500 --MAUDIO FastTrack Ultra --Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO --Line6 X3 Live --Gibson, Fender, Takamine, Schecter, Washburn http://pogopoppa.wix.com/5thgear# http://soundcloud.com/digi2ns
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/20 09:27:08
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digi2ns
Really learning here but I have a question.
For the small (16x20) home room studio, what is the better way to check/verify choices in panning?
Using monitors or head phones?
I tend to mix by monitors but find getting a good grasp of the panning is better through the cans. Is there a preferred method of doing it or is it by accepted figures printed out. I assume different songs will call for different pans.
Hi Mike, In my opinion, you want to go with your monitors because headphones (most times) make us pan things more than they should be due to them being on your head sideways instead of in a triangle like you would listen to any other set of speakers. If you can do good on cans and feel you need them for panning, go for it. But if you have the right monitor set-up and you are as many feet away from them as they are from each other, you have the perfect panning situation. I find that what *I* consider good pans in my monitors, sound a bit more mono than I'd like in my cans due to me never exhausting hard pans. I like my core of my music to not be too panned because it tends to separate or disconnect the instruments. Before I had a really good monitor set-up, I used to do the opposite from you. I'd use my monitors to pan with and my cans to mix with because I just could never get a good representation out of un-corrected NS-10's without a sub. At the end of the day though, use what works best for you. In my opinion though, you should do all your mixing, leveling and panning in your monitors if you can. If you CAN'T you may want to find out why and fix the monitors. Cans are good to reference but I'd never make any decisions based on them no matter what set I use....but that's just me brother. :) Do what works best for you. -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/09/20 09:29:08
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digi2ns
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/20 09:42:48
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Danny Danzi
Hi Mike,
In my opinion, you want to go with your monitors because headphones (most times) make us pan things more than they should be due to them being on your head sideways instead of in a triangle like you would listen to any other set of speakers. But if you have the right monitor set-up and you are as many feet away from them as they are from each other, you have the perfect panning situation. I find that what *I* consider good pans in my monitors, sound a bit more mono than I'd like in my cans due to me never exhausting hard pans. I like my core of my music to not be too panned because it tends to separate or disconnect the instruments.
In my opinion though, you should do all your mixing, leveling and panning in your monitors if you can. If you CAN'T you may want to find out why and fix the monitors. Cans are good to reference but I'd never make any decisions based on them no matter what set I use....but that's just me brother. :) Do what works best for you.
-Danny
Thanks a bunch Danny, This confirms what I suspected in my case and some of what I forgot. I try to remember to NEVER mix through the cans (It might sound good on my cans but going back to monitors its not what I want or way off) The bit on the monitors triangular placement and your seating is where I tend to forget to be, but YIELDS the best results for me when followed. Gotta tell myself cans are for REFERENCING only  One prob I run into is family is home now almost all the time so I tend to not pump up the monitors and use the cans. (Bad move on the mix and good for the family LOL) Thanks again
MIKE --Dell Studio XPS I7/870 2.93 Ghz, 8GB Mem, 2-2TB Barracuda HDs, 500 GB Ext.HDD, Win7/64 --X1 64 Pro Expanded, Dual 21" Monitors --PCR500 --MAUDIO FastTrack Ultra --Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO --Line6 X3 Live --Gibson, Fender, Takamine, Schecter, Washburn http://pogopoppa.wix.com/5thgear# http://soundcloud.com/digi2ns
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7-string_guy
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/20 15:50:23
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sorry but i like hi hats on left, and ride on right
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/20 18:05:11
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digi2ns
Danny Danzi
Hi Mike,
In my opinion, you want to go with your monitors because headphones (most times) make us pan things more than they should be due to them being on your head sideways instead of in a triangle like you would listen to any other set of speakers. But if you have the right monitor set-up and you are as many feet away from them as they are from each other, you have the perfect panning situation. I find that what *I* consider good pans in my monitors, sound a bit more mono than I'd like in my cans due to me never exhausting hard pans. I like my core of my music to not be too panned because it tends to separate or disconnect the instruments.
In my opinion though, you should do all your mixing, leveling and panning in your monitors if you can. If you CAN'T you may want to find out why and fix the monitors. Cans are good to reference but I'd never make any decisions based on them no matter what set I use....but that's just me brother. :) Do what works best for you.
-Danny
Thanks a bunch Danny,
This confirms what I suspected in my case and some of what I forgot.
I try to remember to NEVER mix through the cans (It might sound good on my cans but going back to monitors its not what I want or way off)
The bit on the monitors triangular placement and your seating is where I tend to forget to be, but YIELDS the best results for me when followed.
Gotta tell myself cans are for REFERENCING only
One prob I run into is family is home now almost all the time so I tend to not pump up the monitors and use the cans. (Bad move on the mix and good for the family LOL)
Thanks again
You're welcome. :) You know, I have a friend who's wife would constantly break his stones about him and his music. I don't think she meant anything maliciously, but one day I said to her "Brenda...you have a good man.....you always know where he is...just follow the music and you'll find him. Would you rather he went out with the boys drinking and raising hell? Instead he's 25 foot-steps away from you. The guy works hard everyday and is a great father and husband....cut him a lil slack sweets." She looked at me and said..."you know, I never once thought of it that way, Danny. Wow...it's not like he cranks it so loud that it bothers us and you're right, he is a good man and I know where he is at all times." She hugged me and the next thing you know , my friend Bill calls me and says "dude, what the heck did you say to my wife?! She told me that I could buy all the gear I've been talking about and out of the blue came up to me and said "I support you and your music" and I said "uh, why?" and she said "you can thank your buddy Danny for that...just enjoy it!" :) If ya gotta use your phones though, and you really do get better mixes that way...or better pans, use what you gotta use to get the job done. If you happen to listen to a mix that may have more hard pans due to it sounding good in cans yet it seems to lose a little impact on your monitors or in a car, try panning a little tighter and see if that changes. When I say tighter, I don't mean stay in the 50's and 60's....just try not to do everything hard panned. Think of a stage and how you would see and hear the music coming from that stage. Your drums in the center panning, yet you shouldn't hear cymbals and toms panning hard left to right. Think about it...that disconnects the drum kit. People go nuts panning crash cymbals and stuff way too hard. It's a percussive instrument that makes the sound of sssssssssss you don't need it to be panned out to where your guitars or keys may be, ya know? So just think things over and map it out if you have to. :) 7-string_guy: I used to like it like that too, As a matter of fact, it took me quite a while to warm up to hats right ride left but I much prefer the listeners perspective when listening to music though it doesn't really matter which you one you choose. Oddly enough...I cannot track my drum kit using listener perspective. It drives me absolutely insane to where I have to swap the sides on my drum bus so it's drummer perspective just for tracking. But when I'm done, I swap it right back. LOL! :) -Danny
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ChuckC
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Re:Panning, Stereo field managment
2012/09/20 18:28:36
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I tend to prefer drummer perspective myself, but I recently recorded & mixed one song to go on an album of songs by the same band, done by another producer/studio. Since he uses listener perspective I did it that way too. It only drove me nuts for about 10 minutes and then I guess I acclimated to it.
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