Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:05:56
(permalink)
Karl, maybe I'm being thicker than a whale omelette, but are you saying you can't see what I'm seeing here in the LH part of the TI? 
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:08:08
(permalink)
Yes, it is the "audio" output of the VSTi not the MIDI - it doesn't afftect the MIDI but the level of the volume output of the instrument and coresponding track. The only "Gain" control for the instrument would be within in the VSTi itself - no? Hence, there is no need for a "Gain" control on the SIT itself. That would be handy and that indeed may be what the OP is saying and wanting to have which would be in theory a remote volume control for the VSTi. e.g. there are many DP instruments that have to be turned down because of clipping but must be done within DP. I'm slow but I sure ain't fast! 
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:12:56
(permalink)
I don't use simple instrument tracks, however because of this thread I loaded up one and I see exactly what FBB sees and it also makes perfect sense. Its the way one would expect it to work.
The dual inspector strip is setup under the audio tab with the left hand strip for the audio and the right hand strip for the buss it goes to.
I see nothing flawed in this or a bug.
I am with Bitflipper in that I simply see no need or advantage in using SITs.
|
FastBikerBoy
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 11326
- Joined: 2008/01/25 16:15:36
- Location: Watton, Norfolk, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:17:13
(permalink)
Hi Colin. I can see the left hand strip and the controls of the SIT. The OP asked about the gain control for the audio part of the SIT not being accessible via a SIT. I think it was Scott who answered that it was and the SIT's audio controls are accessed in the right hand strip of the inspector by clicking on the audio tab (as per your screenshot) What I am saying is I don't see the SIT audio controls by clicking on the audio tab in the right hand strip, I see the downstream buss controls there. I think one of three things has happened - I've completely misunderstood Scott.
- I have a set up or option screwed up somewhere
- Scott's wrong
I'm trying to establish if what I'm seeing is normal or not. I can't quite see from your screenshot. What controls do you see in the right hand strip on the audio tab? Do they control the SIT or the downstream buss?
|
FastBikerBoy
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 11326
- Joined: 2008/01/25 16:15:36
- Location: Watton, Norfolk, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:23:35
(permalink)
fwrend
Yes, it is the "audio" output of the VSTi not the MIDI - it doesn't afftect the MIDI but the level of the volume output of the instrument and coresponding track. The only "Gain" control for the instrument would be within in the VSTi itself - no? Hence, there is no need for a "Gain" control on the SIT itself.
No... If the SIT were split into it's component parts there is a trim/gain control on the MIDI track (which is actually a velocity trim) and there is also a Gain control on the audio track that the VSTi outputs to. The OP has quite rightly pointed out that there is no way of adjusting the audio trim on a SIT. Then the answer came that there was via the audio tab of the right hand strip in the inspector view of the SIT, but I don't see that. At least I'm not alone, thanks for confirming I'm not insane John. I wonder if that's a setting of some sort. Regardless I see nothing but confusion whenever SITs come up on the board. Mine included... 
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:27:24
(permalink)
fwrend
Yes, it is the "audio" output of the VSTi not the MIDI - it doesn't afftect the MIDI but the level of the volume output of the instrument and coresponding track. The only "Gain" control for the instrument would be within in the VSTi itself - no? Hence, there is no need for a "Gain" control on the SIT itself.
That would be handy and that indeed may be what the OP is saying and wanting to have which would be in theory a remote volume control for the VSTi. e.g. there are many DP instruments that have to be turned down because of clipping but must be done within DP.
I'm slow but I sure ain't fast!
The audio track for an SIT is setup just like any audio track. The gain control is for controlling the level coming into the track. This is important if for example its too high for a plugin inserted into the FX bin. Also you can have multiple synths out going to a single audio track. The gain is another place to adjust level.
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:28:51
(permalink)
AHA! Yes, seeing Bristol's screenshot I now see that I was not seeing the Gain control to which the OP & Scott referred.
If one of the Tabs at the top are clicked, it takes out half of the strip. If the Clip or Track tab is highlighted at the top just click on that tab again and it will be gone revealing the Gain control knob which DOES not do anything! DOH!
EDIT: Correction: It DOES move the Velocity meter in the SIT TV as the OP says.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:32:07
(permalink)
FastBikerBoy
fwrend
Yes, it is the "audio" output of the VSTi not the MIDI - it doesn't afftect the MIDI but the level of the volume output of the instrument and coresponding track. The only "Gain" control for the instrument would be within in the VSTi itself - no? Hence, there is no need for a "Gain" control on the SIT itself.
No... If the SIT were split into it's component parts there is a trim/gain control on the MIDI track (which is actually a velocity trim) and there is also a Gain control on the audio track that the VSTi outputs to.
The OP has quite rightly pointed out that there is no way of adjusting the audio trim on a SIT. Then the answer came that there was via the audio tab of the right hand strip in the inspector view of the SIT, but I don't see that.
At least I'm not alone, thanks for confirming I'm not insane John. I wonder if that's a setting of some sort.
Regardless I see nothing but confusion whenever SITs come up on the board. Mine included...
I thought the gain control was for ah gain. I didn't check it when I checked out the SIT but what else could it be for? Now I am confused. I thought I could bring some concrete definitive statement to this now I'm not sure anymore. LOL
|
FastBikerBoy
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 11326
- Joined: 2008/01/25 16:15:36
- Location: Watton, Norfolk, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:38:38
(permalink)
John
FastBikerBoy
fwrend
Yes, it is the "audio" output of the VSTi not the MIDI - it doesn't afftect the MIDI but the level of the volume output of the instrument and coresponding track. The only "Gain" control for the instrument would be within in the VSTi itself - no? Hence, there is no need for a "Gain" control on the SIT itself.
No... If the SIT were split into it's component parts there is a trim/gain control on the MIDI track (which is actually a velocity trim) and there is also a Gain control on the audio track that the VSTi outputs to.
The OP has quite rightly pointed out that there is no way of adjusting the audio trim on a SIT. Then the answer came that there was via the audio tab of the right hand strip in the inspector view of the SIT, but I don't see that.
At least I'm not alone, thanks for confirming I'm not insane John. I wonder if that's a setting of some sort.
Regardless I see nothing but confusion whenever SITs come up on the board. Mine included...
I thought the gain control was for ah gain. I didn't check it when I checked out the SIT but what else could it be for? Now I am confused. I thought I could bring some concrete definitive statement to this now I'm not sure anymore. LOL
Yes it is quite confusing but the "Gain" control in the LH side of the inspector ranges from -127 to +127 so that must be MIDI velocity. I'm still confused by what should be seen in the right hand side of the inspector but at least we're seeing the same thing, which as you said what I would expect to see. I thought perhaps I was losing my sanity.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:41:57
(permalink)
I thought perhaps I was losing my sanity.
You can't do that that's my job!
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 16:50:04
(permalink)
FastBikerBoy
John
FastBikerBoy
fwrend
Yes, it is the "audio" output of the VSTi not the MIDI - it doesn't afftect the MIDI but the level of the volume output of the instrument and coresponding track. The only "Gain" control for the instrument would be within in the VSTi itself - no? Hence, there is no need for a "Gain" control on the SIT itself.
No... If the SIT were split into it's component parts there is a trim/gain control on the MIDI track (which is actually a velocity trim) and there is also a Gain control on the audio track that the VSTi outputs to.
The OP has quite rightly pointed out that there is no way of adjusting the audio trim on a SIT. Then the answer came that there was via the audio tab of the right hand strip in the inspector view of the SIT, but I don't see that.
At least I'm not alone, thanks for confirming I'm not insane John. I wonder if that's a setting of some sort.
Regardless I see nothing but confusion whenever SITs come up on the board. Mine included...
I thought the gain control was for ah gain. I didn't check it when I checked out the SIT but what else could it be for? Now I am confused. I thought I could bring some concrete definitive statement to this now I'm not sure anymore. LOL
Yes it is quite confusing but the "Gain" control in the LH side of the inspector ranges from -127 to +127 so that must be MIDI velocity.
I'm still confused by what should be seen in the right hand side of the inspector but at least we're seeing the same thing, which as you said what I would expect to see. I thought perhaps I was losing my sanity.
Karl, doesn't Midi velocity go from 0 - 127? How can you have a negative velocity (without involving Einstein or Hawking?) I can see exactly the same as you, that the control is spanning the range -127 to +127 I think this is yet another clue that SIT's are seriously fouled up
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
FastBikerBoy
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 11326
- Joined: 2008/01/25 16:15:36
- Location: Watton, Norfolk, UK
- Status: offline
|
garrigus
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8599
- Joined: 2003/11/05 17:23:21
- Location: www.garrigus.com
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 17:23:00
(permalink)
Whoa... this place is getting crazy now.  Don't worry... everyone's screenshots are correct. I never mentioned the right-hand part of the Inspector. I just said if you click the Audio tab at the bottom of the Inspector, it would give you access to the audio portion of the Instrument track. I just assumed everyone knew that the left part of the Inspector always represents the track and the right part represents the bus. Yeah, yeah... I know, never assume. Anyway, what I was mistaken about is that the Gain control for the audio portion of the Instrument track isn't shown, unfortunately. If you split the Instrument track, you'll see that yes indeed there is a gain control on the audio track, so I think this should be shown in the Audio tab of the Inspector, which is why I said either bug or design flaw. Maybe I'm wrong and Cakewalk will respond with an explanation. As far as advantages to Instrument tracks, there are at least two... screen real estate and (more importantly) working with MIDI controllers. With Instrument tracks only one fader on a controller is taken up, which makes things a bit easier. Then again, your mileage may vary. So I hope that clears things up... Best, Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com * Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks * Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor * Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq * Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
|
garrigus
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8599
- Joined: 2003/11/05 17:23:21
- Location: www.garrigus.com
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 17:25:49
(permalink)
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 17:28:20
(permalink)
FBB: Yes it is quite confusing but the "Gain" control in the LH side of the inspector ranges from -127 to +127 so that must be MIDI velocity. While it may be the intent, it is not. it doesn't affect velocity whatsoever here MIDI nor VSTi although it does move the Vel level on the SIT which seems silly as the SIT doesn't seem to serve a purpose except to give a place to Freeze the audio making it unique from an audio track since once you move the frozen audio to an actual audio track where it will remain even when you unfreeze the SIT. I know I'm mainly talking to myself but it does help me It is kind of funny that the OP and Scott (Q&A) are the only ones that are on the same page?
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 17:29:47
(permalink)
Thanks Scott. Time for bed for me  Today has been far too long
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 17:53:11
(permalink)
Okay, I can't let it drop. Further research shows here that the Gain knob really has NO affect on the MIDI other than the data that is sent to the VSTi when played live - However, even then, the effect is realtime but is not tracked. Initially I used a MIDI file routed to the VSTi but was curious as to manual input so I started with my own MIDI input.
1. the Gain knob on the SIT and the Gain knob on the MIDI Track (MT) are in no way connected. Moving one does not move the other.
2. I can play the VSTi with my controller and when I move the SIT Gain down all the way, I get no sound - "okay" I think. I turn it up and i get sound - "okay" I think - "it does do something". However, . . .
3. So, I record with the SIT Gain knob at -127 (all the way counter clockwise). I here no sound but MIDI is being recorded.
4. On play back, it plays as normal with normal Velocity values regardless of the Gain knob position before or after recording.
This tells me that it really has NO purpose at ALL! What am I missing?
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 17:54:36
(permalink)
I might add that Freezing the track before or after adjusting the SIT Gain knob makes no difference as well.
|
garrigus
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8599
- Joined: 2003/11/05 17:23:21
- Location: www.garrigus.com
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 18:17:11
(permalink)
|
Rasure
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 584
- Joined: 2007/02/06 06:26:21
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 18:22:15
(permalink)
Woahhh, this thread gone wild since my last post lol. At least you can see what I mean now :-) As a side note, something like this would be great as a prochannel mod for input gain assuming its pre fx bin.... http://dsp.sonimus.com/products/satson/
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 18:27:42
(permalink)
Thanks Scott - but again, it does not affect playback whatsoever. And, just to clarify (yeah, I know who I'm talking to! Love X1 Power!), try adjusting the gain on the SIT, NOT the MIDI Track. Granted, they both seem to be Velocity knobs but only the MIDI Gain on the MIDI Track adjusts and has an affect on Velocity.
The MIDI Track channel Gain works Velocity as expected but the SIT Gain does not. Here anyway (at work or home).
|
garrigus
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8599
- Joined: 2003/11/05 17:23:21
- Location: www.garrigus.com
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/20 19:09:38
(permalink)
Hi Wren, Thanks very much for reading my book! I appreciate it. Ah ha... yes, I see what you mean now. Well, looks like it could be a bug. I really think that Gain knob on the audio portion of the Instrument track (shown in the Inspector) is supposed to be for audio gain and not MIDI gain, but for some reason it's not. Notice that if you split the Instrument track and then adjust the Gain knob on the resulting audio track (audio output for the synth), then it works. So, no... you're not going crazy. Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com * Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks * Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor * Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq * Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/21 07:08:06
(permalink)
I think we're all crazy now
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/21 09:58:57
(permalink)
Scott: Vel+ doesn't change the data in the track. It is applied non-destructively during playback.
Yes indeed!
My apologies! For much of this, I was using a different MIDI track pointing to the SIT - DOH (sometimes age gets the best of me!)
Just for clarification to anyone who may benefit from reading this far or starting close:
When you "split" the Simple Instrument Track by Track/Split Instrument Track or right-clicking in the SIT and choosing "Split Instrument Track" - you then have two tracks: 1 MIDI & 1 Instrument.
At this point (here anyway) adjusting the Gain knob in the corresponding track (of either the MIDI or Synth) in the Inspector, does indeed adjust the Velocity of the MIDI in a NON-destructive way. Which may be as intended although confusing.
Doing it this way, the change IS applied when Freezing the track. So, there is a benefit/purpose and use for this adjustment although the same can be accomplished by simply adjusting the Velocity slider in TV or the "gain" knob in CV which is the confusing part of this.
They should either call (in split status) the knob on both "Velocity" OR call the knob on the MIDI channel Velocity and fix the knob on the instrument channel to affect the Volume of the VSTi treating it like a normal Gain/Trim adjustment.
Head clear - DONE!
|
FastBikerBoy
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 11326
- Joined: 2008/01/25 16:15:36
- Location: Watton, Norfolk, UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/21 12:29:05
(permalink)
The thing that keeps my head clear is not using SIT in the firest place, they've always seemed a little pointless to me.
|
Rasure
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 584
- Joined: 2007/02/06 06:26:21
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/21 12:58:37
(permalink)
I love SIT keeps things nice and tidy, less confusing when you've got lots of tracks going, for me anyway :-)
|
fwrend
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2006/09/19 16:02:52
- Location: Garden City, KS
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/21 15:11:06
(permalink)
Agree with both :-)
It would be more logical to me that an SIT when inserted defaulted to the split state or have an option for such in the Insert Options dialogue box - at least the relevant items are visible. I gues this would be what I like about the SIT - both audio & midi bound to one synth in it's own folder (assuming that option is ticked).
|
stevec
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11546
- Joined: 2003/11/04 15:05:54
- Location: Parkesburg, PA
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/21 15:42:34
(permalink)
I actually prefer SITs too, at least for single channel instruments (80-90% of what I use). And to be honest, in those cases I've never really needed anything beyond what the SIT controls provide. So for me I see no benefit in using the traditional SONAR two track approach when a single SIT will do. As always, YMMV. And it usually does. 
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
|
Michael Five
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 366
- Joined: 2008/01/18 00:43:06
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/22 01:07:15
(permalink)
garrigus
In SONAR X1, you can now access all parameters for an Instrument track via the Inspector. When you make an Instrument track active, you'll see two tabs at the bottom of the Inspector. Click the Audio tab and you can adjust the audio gain for the track.
Scott
--
dang ol' inspector. I have lost my sonar power book, and was close to kicking the cat yesterday about it....
_______________________________________________ X1c, p35 6600 Quad OC@3Ghz, FF400, Saffire 6, IBM T42, UAD-1, Superior 2.0
|
garrigus
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8599
- Joined: 2003/11/05 17:23:21
- Location: www.garrigus.com
- Status: offline
Re:No gain on simple instrument tracks?
2012/06/22 08:02:17
(permalink)
|