Piano exercise advice needed

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sharke
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 14:54:46 (permalink)
Beepster


That's what I'm saying. The human hand is a very intricate and amazing design. You get those complimentary muscles up to task and you can do a lot more with your pinky. I know you aren't necessarily saying this yourself but when people imply that there is nothing that can be done to improve strength in their pinky because of a physiological technicality it kind of implies that trying is pointless so don't bother when in reality that limitation is a reason to focus on it even more. Know what I mean? And yes... "ungluing" the pinky from the ring finger is very important.

My left pinky is totally unglued from the ring finger, unlike on the right hand. I don't think I've ever done any pinky-specific exercises, it's just from using the pinky in your everyday playing. It happens naturally. It's amazing how much longer my left hand fingers are, too. Mine are about a third of an inch longer. 

James
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#31
Beepster
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 15:03:53 (permalink)
Hi, Janet. Those exercises are actually for guitar. I'm not really a keyboard player but now that I have more room I'm going to be setting up my DX-7 so I can teach myself. The only thing I know about piano/key playing is the proper way to play diatonic scales which a friend of mine taught me years ago. Fortunately because I spent so much time agonizing over my guitar theory it should be easy to translate that to the keyboard. Gonna be quite the struggle getting my hands to behave properly though after 20 years of guitar playing. It's VERY difficult for me to play two independent parts with each hand because of how on guitar the right and left hands work in constant unison. In fact I'd be interested in any beginner tuts yourself or anyone else have for me to look at. I know the theory but it's just getting the hands trained.

If you play guitar though I'm about a third of the way through writing down my theory based on the exercises I mentioned. It's geared towards full mastery of all the diatonic modes in all keys over the entire fretboard... including all the basic triads. Really need to get back to writing. Had to stop and focus on learning the DAW stuff for a while though. I'm gonna try to sync the book up to audio versions of everything and eventually videos. Gotta buy a decent camera first for that last bit though.

One thing I will say though is that spending the $50 to go see a physiotherapist who specializes in arm/hand therapy is well worth it for any musician. The stretches and exercises they can provide to develop muscle groups, stretch unruly tendons safely and prevent injury are WELL worth the cost. There are music therapy clinics too but they can be hard to find and cost significantly more. It's all pretty much the same thing though. When I do my stretches before playing the quality and ease of my performance drastically improved and I don't wake up in the middle of the night with my arms on fire... at least not as badly. Also icing and heating after an intense session helps immensely. Sometimes it's easy to forget that although it may not seem like physical exercise it is and parts of the body are being used in ways they weren't designed to by nature.

Anyway... just rambling 'cause I'm a little bored and don't feel like doing yet another's day worth of cleaning and sorting in my new studio... even though I should. ;-)
#32
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 15:28:17 (permalink)
Well actually an easy exercise that crosses all instruments that can be done to unglue the pinky and the rest of the fingers is doing the "Spock" but with all your fingers one at a time and in various configurations. 

Put your hand flat, palm down with your fingers pointing straight out away from your body with all your fingers together touching each other including your thumb.

Start by separating your thumb from the rest of your fingers without allowing the rest of your fingers to move. Extend it out as far as it will comfortably go then just a touch further to feel a slight stretch. Your fingers will likely try to move away from pointing out directly straight. Do not allow them to do so. Do this slowly at first then build up speed. It should look kind of like those old 80's workouts women doing their leg scissor exercises. 

Now do it with your index finger but keep your thumb glued to the index finger so it moves along with while again keeping the rest of your fingers perfectly straight and immobile... this will be trickier. 

Then do the Spock live long and prosper move but this time keep you thumb, index and middle finger point straight and extend your ring and pinky glued together to the opposite direction.

Then do just the pinky while keeping the rest of your fingers straight and immobile. 

Now take your hand and point it upwards with your palm facing your face and do that entire series of exercises again. Totally different, isn't it?

Now do it with your fingers point up but your palm facing outwards.

You can also try it like the very first set (fingers pointing straight out away from you) but have your palm facing toward the ceiling. 

Once you get comfortable with those you can start mixing it up. 

For example... keep your middle and ring finger point straight and extend your pinky and index/thumb simultaneously. This will be quite tricky. There are a ton of variations of this I could type up and maybe I will a little later but you get the idea. These are just simple things that can be done anywhere to unglue your fingers from each other.

You can also try doing these exercises with both hands at once which is relatively easy but then try doing two completely different exercises on each hand at the same time. Doing that helps make your mind and hands be able to work independent from each other. You can literally spend hours doing different configurations.

Hope that helps some folks. Cheers.
#33
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 15:51:43 (permalink)
Interesting, and thank you!  I can't imagine me taking 20 minutes to do stretching, unless I did it while watching TV, which I rarely do. But I'm sure I could try it sometimes, while walking, etc.  I like the idea of a good physiotherapist.  Mine has helped my arm and shoulder a lot, but it seems that whenever I start seriously practicing again it just flares up again.  My chiropractor even told me to just find another hobby.  I growled at him.    Well, not really, but I felt like it.  Anyway, thank you.  I know the days are long gone when I can just do about anything I want without warming up beforehand and dealing with the muscles afterwards.  Just need to learn to make it part of my schedule.


(I have been using my new hand-held ultrasound machine on my sore thumb and I think it's helping.  That, and some tight knit gloves I wear at night for hand pain.)  
#34
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:06:27 (permalink)
Oh, and as far as getting used to the piano and your hands doing different things at once.  I think that just comes from practice, like most things...just start slowly and it will come.  I think you should have tons of talent in those fingers of yours, so I can't imagine it will be a problem...just teach them to move a different way.  :)  
#35
Beepster
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:15:11 (permalink)
Oh no... sorry. The basic stretching I do only takes a couple minutes. The 20 minutes worth or exercises is actually referring to going through all the modes and chords on every position of the guitar neck in every key. It's actually quite ridiculous. I do an entire key every couple minutes. When I first started it would take 20 minutes just to do one key and I sped it up progressively until I could time myself to 20 minutes without too many time fluctuations or mistakes. Actually when I really push myself and allow for some sloppiness I've timed myself at 12 minutes to do the whole thing but that's quite ridiculous and not for everyone. I used my laptops crappy webcam to record myself doing it at one point and it couldn't keep up with my fingers like at ALL. Pretty funny. Those nights I would inevitably end up in significant pain later on though. Haven't really been doing that routine for a while now because the focus has been on recording but I need to get back into it. It's probably gonna be quite rough again at this point.

The routine starts with about 15-20 minutes of general exercises to get warmed up. Then I'll take a quick break and then I'll do the following for all twelve keys beginning with C and following the circle of fifths.

Play the major scale of root note in first position to the second octave forwards and backwards.

Play each mode of the root key starting on Ionian at whatever position the the root note falls on beginning on the low E string (eg: C = 8th fret). Once I reach the mode that begins on or above the 12th fret I switch down to open or 1st position and continue the pattern until I reach the original position of the Ionian mode.

Then I play each triad of the key arpeggiated to the second octave starting at the position of the I chord of the key on the low E string (again C Major = 8th fret).

Then I play the chords of the key arpeggiated to the second octave in first postion.

Then I move on to the next key.

Eventually I'll be adding every single mode in first position as well but that's gonna be a lot of work because of the nature of first position... especially for the sharp/flat keys.

It is extremely dorky.

;-)


#36
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:18:50 (permalink)
I little bit of icing with a gel pak can work wonders. They actually have ones specially designed to wrap around the wrists, forearms and wherever else you need and then you can toss the gel pak into the microwave to get the heat action after. Better to use two sets though. One for cold and then one for heat so you don't have to wait for the heat.

Cold draws the old blood away which is causing the pain then the heat draws fresh blood to the area.

Best to ya. :-)
#37
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:20:18 (permalink)

Dorky works.  :)   If I did that, I'd probably be done for the day, but seriously warmed up!  :)  

I'm beginning to have a tiny bit of hope that maybe I'll be able to seriously practice again some day.  In the meantime, it's not like I'm bored or anything.  :)  And good grief...if I haven't been able to get amazing by now, I'm sure there's not much chance of it happening from here on out.  And on most days I'm cool with that.


#38
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:21:18 (permalink)
I'm looking for a body pak.  
#39
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:26:09 (permalink)
But you're having fun right? That's really all that matters.

And nice hot baths are actually the ultimate for getting at all the annoying little muscles. I'm too messed up to take baths though so hot showers are my go to.


#40
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 16:30:51 (permalink)
The little time I get to practice (and just play) these days is mostly fun, yes.  In fact, someone wants to do a piano duet of one of Mannheim Steamroller's songs for our Christmas program at church.  At first it seemed pretty tough, but it's coming along now, so that feels good. :)  
#41
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 17:02:53 (permalink)
Heh. Best way to learn a tune. An impending live gig. I've had to learn entire set lists with a week's notice. Grueling but rewarding. Have fun. :-)
#42
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 17:06:54 (permalink)
:)  I can't imagine learning a whole set in a week...well, not memorized 7 page pieces anyway.  :)
#43
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 17:15:29 (permalink)
Yeah... I'm a little... how shall we say... crazy. :-p

It usually all had to be done by ear as well. It was hard but I'm a better musician for it.
#44
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 17:31:26 (permalink)
Crazy works too.  :)

I'm so glad I had to learn to play by ear several years ago.  I'm still not as good at it as I could be, but at least I can sometimes.  Still ticks me off that some piano players don't teach their students to do that, but that's another story.  
#45
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 18:22:58 (permalink)
Training your ear to recognize the modes of the Major scale helps immensely with being able to pick stuff up by ear. Then after that's covered moving on to the modes harmonic and melodic minor covers up much of the other gaps. Then it's just symmetrical and foreign scales really to cover the very small remainder. 

Before I learned all that crap I painstakingly taught myself tunes and solos through trial and error. Now I can pick out the modal patterns or chords or whatever for each part of a song and know where everything should be in the grand scheme of things. Then it all falls into place much easier. Even if it's a flowing song that doesn't follow a key once a chord is established the entire structure for that moment in the song is right there ready to be solved.

Pretty cool stuff.
#46
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 18:51:34 (permalink)
So true!  I've got the basics down but still have far to go.  I find I can find most intervals...unless I'm in the middle of a song and trying to find one!     But like you said, you start doing things naturally, and that's cool.  What started this whole thing, though, is your post about exercising and then being able to try new things. Ior something like that...)  That sounds interesting.  
#47
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 19:13:41 (permalink)
You seem to know what's going on. It's just a matter of spending time doing it and playing around with ideas. Not always an easy task what with the going's on of life and what not. I've just had long stretches of time where I was able to focus my attention solely on the nerdier aspects of music. Without that I wouldn't have as much of a grasp on things as I do. That has all come at a very steep price but it keeps me reasonably sane at this point. Don't have much else going on so I just keep getting dorkier. ;-) 
#48
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 19:21:04 (permalink)
I can't even imagine having time to focus on any one particular thing at this time.  I can't figure out if the diversity is enough to keep me sane or is actually contributing to the insanity.  :)  I suppose it does keep me off the sidewalk though.  :) 
#49
sharke
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/09 22:05:53 (permalink)
Beepster

 Gonna be quite the struggle getting my hands to behave properly though after 20 years of guitar playing. It's VERY difficult for me to play two independent parts with each hand because of how on guitar the right and left hands work in constant unison. 


You should take up classical guitar! Nothing teaches you hand and finger independence like a Bach fugue that has 3 or 4 independent parts. The "secret" behind playing independent parts is to sight read them. That's why I recommended taking up classical guitar - all the parts are on one stave. Your eye is tracking left to right and playing the notes as they fall. Sometimes you're playing notes together, other times you're playing notes in succession. The point is, as you're reading and playing, it doesn't feel like you're playing independent parts. It just feels like you're tracking a succession of notes with your eye and playing them in time. I think a lot of people think that it involves splitting your brain into multiple parts and multitasking....it doesn't. 

I actually learned to play independent parts by fingerpicking ragtime guitar. I wrote a walking bassline and a melody, and couldn't wrap my head around playing both at the same time until I realized that you have to think of it as one part, and which order the notes fall when you consolidate the parts into one. 

James
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#50
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/10 16:02:10 (permalink)
I'm pretty capable as far as fingerpicking (appoyendo/tirando) and do have a couple light classical pieces under my belt. It certainly isn't my forte though and intend to work more on it at some point.

However even that the fingerpicking is usually directly tied to what the left hand is doing. What I mean is being able to play two totally different parts with both hands on the keyboard. On guitar your right hand will almost always be doing something to sound what the left hand is doing. On piano that's not the case. Even trying to lay down left hand chords and tap out a melody with the right hand messes me up... knowaddimean? It's gonna take some work to break 20 years of guitar habits. 

I'll get it though... if I can ever get my damned studio set back up. Soooo burnt out. :-/
#51
Janet
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/10 16:04:11 (permalink)
You can do it!

Sorry about the studio.  :(  That gives me nightmares just thinking of setting mine up.

And Marcus....so sorry to high-jack your thread!  I'd say to you...have fun with it.  And if something hurts too much, don't do it.  Find a work-around, some other way to do it, or just don't do it.  Life's not long enough to mess with unnecessary pain.  :)

#52
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Re:Piano exercise advice needed 2012/12/10 16:11:17 (permalink)
Well you know how moves go. I'm just annoyed that a bunch of work that was supposed to be done didn't and now I've got a screw around with that. 

And yeah... sorry, Marcus. Epic threadjack is epic. lol...

;-)
#53
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