X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains!

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Keni
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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/04 21:43:49 (permalink)
Funkybot


Keni


We all/each have our reasons and methods to our work...


I for one never use auto punch anymore as I've found more ease and accuracy using separate takes and editing/compositing afterwards...

Of course we can find work arounds and other methods to accomplish our work but Cakewalk/Sonar has always made one of it's strong points that it allowed us each to work how best suited us...

So I don't try to tell people how they "should" work... I only look to the programmers to supply us with the tools we each need to suite our work methods.... Not only a single work method... ...and Cakewalk has been wonderful about that until X1.... Now many methods have been trashed and replaced with things that (for some) make work easier and for others, not so...

Keni
I hear what you're saying, but ideally, you'd be looking at these features as tools, and you want to be using the best tool for the job. Can you use layers/lanes for recording consecutive parts? Sure...but they're not going to work as well for that because auto-punch is the right tool for that job. You can choose to ignore that if you'd like, but by doing so you'd only be making things harder on yourself. As I point out above, even the old layers approach doesn't work as efficiently as auto-punch for that task.

Why make things hard on yourself when there's a better way? I'd suggest you stop fighting Sonar and try adjusting to it. And if you want to make things hard on yourself, why all the threads/posts about how awful lanes are? It took some getting used to for most, but right now, it seems like a lot of people (myself included) are happy with the new approach and prefer it. It could be improved, but it's a nice step forward.

I know you truly believe you have the correct answer for this but you're missing the mark...
 
I know my recording techniques as well as anyone and if I found auto-punch to be easier to work with I would but that uis NOT the case here...
 
I'm not fighting Sonar and I have no problem working the way I choose... but the new Sonar tools are missing things that we already had in order to give us new things (I seem to have had this same type of discussion when X1 was released)... We are now waiting for Cakewalk to give us back many things... (Remember adjusting colors for everything?) We went thru this with snap as well when they gave us the "new" universal snap and found that they really needed to add separate settings for the PRV... this still is not working right but they realized the issues....
 
I'm glad the punching makes things good for you... I stopped using punching when I stopped recording on tape.... and that was a long time ago.... I have much more fine control working the way I do now...
 
BTW... I've been a recording engineer as my day job since the beginning of the 70's... So I got plenty of experience punching... ;-)
 
Keni
 

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Keni
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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/04 21:53:14 (permalink)
Funkybot


VariousArtist

FWIW, I often do complete takes of a solo that overlap from start to finish.  I found with layers I could very quickly organize parts in a way that was flexible and suited my workflow.  I have been really trying to do the same with lanes, but it is just not the same at all...
Have you tried this (and I only found out about this recently and it really changed my attitude towards comping with lanes):


1. Record a bunch of takes to lanes
2. When you identify the best section from each take*...
3. Click the Mute tool, then hold down Alt (I think it's Alt, either that or Ctrl) as you drag the mute tool over the best take for each section


Result: All other lanes are automatically muted with a single click and drag; you're done. Once finished with the entire comp, just hide the layers. You can even bounce if you really want to.


*Note: no matter how you work, steps 1 and 2 are required. This means, you can now comp or audition each take with a single click and drag motion using layers. If you already knew about this, maybe someone else will find it helpful. I know I did...

Thanks Funkybot...
 
Yes, I'm aware of this tool. Very handy for quick work but I often need to make edit adjustments for each track that are different... So that doesn't work for me here most of the time...
 
I also don't care for the way it mutes... It's not the same as using the clip mute where I can easily turn a clip on/off...
 
I may use this on-the-fly to test things and then go back and do proper edits prior to completion...
 
Keni
 
 

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Funkybot
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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/05 14:45:55 (permalink)
Keni, what I'd like to know more about from you is exactly how you're working, and where it's falling short with specfic examples and 1-2-3 steps. Look at the example VariousArtist posted above: I read that and I know exactly the workflow he's talking about, and he's clear in what his expectations are versus what Sonar's doing. 

I've read through your posts, and all I know is that you don't like lanes, and it has something to do with the sizing of the lanes, but I'm not sure where else it's falling short for you and where you'd like to see improvements. 

Even just having a short concise list of what you'd like lanes to do versus what they are doing would help. Example:

1. Expand Lanes button should light up if there are lanes on a track
2. Vertical zoom should work on lanes
3. All but the most recently recorded take should be muted on playback (I thought there was/is a way to do this)
4. When lanes are expanded, the top track should a preview of the comp'd tracks below it instead of being empty
5. Bring back "Rebuild Layers" as "Rebuild Lanes"

6. Allow for Lanes to be exposed on multiple tracks with the ability to move them from track to track if needed
post edited by Funkybot - 2013/01/05 14:54:55

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Funkybot
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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/05 14:53:50 (permalink)
VariousArtist


Funkybot

Have you tried this (and I only found out about this recently and it really changed my attitude towards comping with lanes):


1. Record a bunch of takes to lanes
2. When you identify the best section from each take*...
3. Click the Mute tool, then hold down Alt (I think it's Alt, either that or Ctrl) as you drag the mute tool over the best take for each section


Result: All other lanes are automatically muted with a single click and drag; you're done. Once finished with the entire comp, just hide the layers. You can even bounce if you really want to.


*Note: no matter how you work, steps 1 and 2 are required. This means, you can now comp or audition each take with a single click and drag motion using layers. If you already knew about this, maybe someone else will find it helpful. I know I did...



Thanks for the suggestion, it really is appreciated that you are taking the time to try and help.  However, I think one of the missing functions for me is "rebuild layers" -- maybe it's there with lanes and I've missed it?  Another item is the usage of screen real estate...

Consider the following workflow, one of many that might illustrate where layers worked well:
- you record a bunch of takes, say a baker's dozen
- one of these takes is the "main one" but you have little bits here and there that you might include
- you move the "main take" up to the top
- you cut out various sections for consideration from the other dozen tracks
- then you hit rebuild layers


You should now be left with about 2-3 tracks.  One of these is the main take that you are interested in, and the others are the bits under review.  Now maximize that track and all your layers take up the full screen height without any waste -- that's 2-3 tracks spread across the entire height of the screen.


Take this a step further, and imagine that you might be doing the same thing across two or three tracks simultaneously.  In this scenario it's still possible to work effectively across multiple tracks, each with multiple layers.  I may not necessarily make a habit of working this way, but as and when I do it is very fast and effective.


I'll need to play around with take lanes more and find ways to get used to them.  I suspect I may end up using tracks in places of lanes, and put those tracks in a folder.   Or something.  There are things I like about lanes, but I just wish we could have them AND layers too.  

Up until the "Rebuild Layers" step, you can still do all of that in X2 with Lanes. 


Example:
1. Record a bunch of takes
2. One is the main take
3. You move that to the top - you can even label the take as "Best" in the notes
4. You cut out the various sections under consideration from other takes

What you can do now is: 
5. insert one or more new takes
6. Place the takes under consideration into the new takes
7. Delete everything leftover that you don't want

It's a few more steps then just clicking "Rebuild Layers" but should get you there in a short amount of time. You'll now have 2-3 lanes with only the clips you want to review.

So now you want to maximize the size:
8. Click and drag the bottom of one of your takes to resize it - Result: all lanes resize
9. If you don't want the big empty "track 1" up top, you can click and drag that to minimize the size
I can't find a way though to have lanes open on multiple tracks though. So you can't seem to have Track 1's lanes exposed and Track 2's lanes exposed at once.

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DW_Mike
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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/05 15:42:34 (permalink)
I've got a new workflow for sure... It includes steps I would label as 1) scream 2) throw something 3) curse 4) blame the world for my predicament! ;-)



 

It's comforting to see when someone has a similar workflow to your own.
That way when I have a question I know there's a good chance help is on the way.


Keni, I just added you as a contact for future reference. 


Just for the record, my step 4 varies. I don't always blame the world. Sometimes I just blame who ever happens to be closest to me at that time. 


Mike

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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/05 16:46:12 (permalink)
There are things I like about lanes, but I just wish we could have them AND layers too.



Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember seeing a Cake video where they were talking about Lanes and some of the features.
They then stated that for people who are more comfortable with Layers don't have to worry because they are still an option.
If you like Lanes, use Lanes. If you like Layers, use Layers.


So I'm under the impression that both are available.


I've been going through quite a few surgery's over the last year and haven't spent much time sitting in the studio.
So was the ability to choose only a feature of X1 and no longer an option in X2?


Layers were fine for me except for some buggy behaviors with deleting clips and having random clips jumping and moving to different layers and positions.


I was all excited when the bakers mentioned Lanes, especially Automation Lanes.
Yay, for the first time since I've been using Sonar they finally fixed something that actually effected my workflow, not just adding a step sequencer or some other toy.


I like the idea of Lanes but seeing as their new it may take a little tweaking to fine tune them to where everyone gets used to them and work as people need and expect them too.


Mike  

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Keni
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Re:X2a - Lanes Are Still Pains! 2013/01/05 18:18:18 (permalink)
Funkybot


Keni, what I'd like to know more about from you is exactly how you're working, and where it's falling short with specfic examples and 1-2-3 steps. Look at the example VariousArtist posted above: I read that and I know exactly the workflow he's talking about, and he's clear in what his expectations are versus what Sonar's doing. 

I've read through your posts, and all I know is that you don't like lanes, and it has something to do with the sizing of the lanes, but I'm not sure where else it's falling short for you and where you'd like to see improvements. 

Even just having a short concise list of what you'd like lanes to do versus what they are doing would help. Example:

1. Expand Lanes button should light up if there are lanes on a track
2. Vertical zoom should work on lanes
3. All but the most recently recorded take should be muted on playback (I thought there was/is a way to do this)
4. When lanes are expanded, the top track should a preview of the comp'd tracks below it instead of being empty
5. Bring back "Rebuild Layers" as "Rebuild Lanes"

6. Allow for Lanes to be exposed on multiple tracks with the ability to move them from track to track if needed


Hi Funkybot...

First let me mention that I find work arounds for all these things. It's not a matter of "can I', but how comfortable am I with working this way...

Here are my issues with Lanes... In no particular order... These are not bugs but limitations

1) when I have a large number of lanes, I can't see them on screen with all my tracks as they take extra space instead of fitting within a single track's space...

2) When I need to edit a clip, I need to zoom both the horizontal and the vertical so that I can see well enuf

Easy.... two things I was able to do before that I can no longer do....

My workflow changes based on the needs of the moment and how the solution appears in my mind. So please understand that I find how to get my work done anyway... and I've discovered some interesting new tools along the way...

But right now these two issues fight against my methods and cause me to have to do many extra things repeatedly...

The Lanes and their abilities are still basically the same as layers... It's mostly this graphic aspect that is causing me grief.... along with the loss of tools such as the rebuild command... I can get mine down to 1 or two layers (usually, but I must manually move all my clips (frequently one at a time, but that's yet another issue) until they're on a single Lane...

I had no problems with Layers other than the creation of extra, empty layers when drag-moving clips (something in there sound familiar?) ;-)

If I had never had Layers before I had Lanes, I would probably be screaming about these same issues as they don't make for a comfortable work environment (on screen) for me...

So, Maybe giving up the use of two-heights for a smallest Lane, they should be able to go down to a single height (basically the height of a track header)... and allowing them to zoom as large as a track can...

And some way to display them within the track's space (instead of below) and still allow editing...

This is not a matter of "how do I do this in X2"... It's a matter of what in X2 needs to be fixed so that I can do what I need....

I know that many seem happy to lose so many features of the past for the new glory of the silverlight interface which is so much of what X is about.... I for one am not one of those. I'd love to have multiple monitors and touchscreen for them all... How wonderful for those who can afford them.... But for those of us working stiffs that barely stay one-step out of the poor house, I was fine with 8.5.3

Why didn't I stay there? I would then be resigned to never have any of it's bugs fixed!

Little did I suspect that even tho I now have some cool new plugins and some extra commands long awaited for, I would lose so many of the tools that I rely on...

X2 helped a little for my basic editing (Over X1). I'm much more comfortable with it until I have to deal with Lanes...

Sorry If I rant, but I'm so tired of this. I never had this kind of exasperation with any earlier version of Sonar.... before X1... I can live with many of the changes, but this one really causes me a lot of grief....

Keni


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