Beepster
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Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitations
Edit/tldr: Realized the the wall of text may have been offputting. I'm just trying to figure out how to make Sonar X1/X2 translate the 1-100 velocity range of my first gen Yamaha DX-7 into MIDI standard 1-127 by using velocity curves. Original details: I posted a thread waaaaay back about this but I had VERY little grasp of how MIDI stuff worked and I haven't had the opportunity to set up my old DX-7 until now. Just for clarification it is (as far as I can tell) the absolute first incarnation of the unit (brown casing, no additional model details aside from DX-7 on the unit). For those who aren't familiar with the DX-7 problem but might still be able to help me wrap my head around this basically this model was released before MIDI had become fully standardized. By current standards the keyboard only has a velocity range of 100 so physical hits on the keys that would normally register between 101-127 in the velocity range of a softsynth (strongest velocities) only get a value of 100 within the softsynth/DAW. This obviously causes the performance to be quieter/less dynamic (there are reports that you can actually get it to send velocities above 100 but you have to wail on the keys to the point of almost damaging them). So after taking a second look at this issue now that I have the keyboard sitting in my new room ready to go I did some poking around to see if I could understand some of the fancy solutions I encountered before (and failed to grasp). The simplest idea seems to be to set up velocity curves within the sequencer/softsynth/DAW. I kind of understand the concept of curves and guess what I need to do is set the curves so that an incoming velocity of 1=1 and an incoming velocity of 100=127. Is this correct? If so where and how should I set this? The DX-7 is going to be connected via MIDI din to my Focusrite 18i6. Can I create some kind of profile within Sonar (X1/X2) that will apply the curve to any softsynths I load up or will I have to do this for every synth individually? Also I have a little M-Audio Oxygen 25 and a Korg padKontrol that I connect via USB. Obviously I would not want this curve to affect the inputs from those devices and may want to use them in conjunction with the DX-7. Will I be able to keep these set differently without too much hassle? Any and all advice as to how I should approach this issue is appreciated. I am very much looking forward to taking advantage of the nice key action and larger scale of the DX-7 with all the nice patches in Sonar. Thanks.
post edited by Beepster - 2013/09/24 12:06:10
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Beepster
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 12:07:26
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Bumped and edited to give a brief description of the problem. Any ideas or educational resources are appreciate.
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scook
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 12:35:52
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It has come up occasionally. Here is a typical thread
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Beepster
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 12:51:58
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scook It has come up occasionally. Here is a typical thread
Hmm... thanks. If I'm reading that correctly without a curve plug/effect I won't be able to do what I intended but the MIDI offset idea Mod Bod suggested will probably be good enough for my needs. I'd rather have access to the higher velocities than the bottom 27. I think I was misunderstanding the problem and thinking somehow the velocities could be spread evenly. If I could figure out a way to remove 27 velocity points at specific points across the spectrum that would be better. Example: 1=1, 2=2, 3=4, 4=6, 5=7, 6=8, etc... As far as a profile I guess instead of a static profile for the DX-7 I could create a track template that used a specific midi offset and load that for any tracks I intended to control with it. hmmm...
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scook
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 13:02:58
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A CAL script could map velocity any way you want but it would be after the fact and destructive.
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brundlefly
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 13:48:38
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scook It has come up occasionally. Here is a typical thread
Per the last post in that thread. The '"Velocity" MIDI FX has a "Scale" option. Set that to 127%, and it will scale the recorded values in real time, both while recording and on playback. But there's a bug with MIDI FX that interferes with looping, so you would eventually want to Process > Apply the MFX destructively. Any way you look at it, there will always be some manual action you have to take to set up tracks using the DX7 as a controller. But you can simplify the process by saving an MFX preset and/or track template that includes it.
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Beepster
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 14:04:48
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Okay, getting some ideas from this (I really gotta learn about CAL scripts). One thing though... when you guys say "destructive" in what sense do you mean? I mean I will be able to adjust the velocities in PRV as usual after... right? If I set things up so my DX-7 output of 100=127 then there is no need/want for me to be able to get back to the 100 velocity. I would want that 127 velocity to be my starting point and edit it from there. Another thing is I'm kind of getting the impression that some of the stuff being mentioned is to be applied after the performance. I'm looking for a way to set things up so that as I play the adjusted velocity is taking effect... even if the track isn't armed. Even better would be if I could learn how to set this up within standalone softsynths so I can practice. I'm not a keyboard/piano player so a lot of the reason why I'm doing this is to simply learn how to play on a long(er) scale keyboard. Like say I wanted to use Zeta or Dim Pro without Sonar open can I program those synths to compensate for the reduced velocity points? I know, I know... lots of annoying questions but I'd really like to get a good grasp on this so I can solve the issue in multiple scenarios. Thanks for all the suggestions thus far though. I'm sure I can get something going on with a bit of fiddling. Cheers.
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brundlefly
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 14:13:47
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As mentioned, the MFX will re-scale velocities in real time "while recording" as well as on playback, so you will hear the effect of the increased velocity as you rehearse/record; this is the main advantage over other methods. It's initially non-destructive in that the recorded event velocities are not altered in the clip; they are scaled on the fly at the output of the track. "Destructively" applying any FX just means you are more-or-less permanently altering the recorded content in a clip rather than processing it dynamically on playback, notwithstanding that you can often reverse the process with MIDI by re-applying the effect with inverted settings or by manual editing.
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Beepster
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 14:19:06
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Cool. Thanks, brundlefly. I'll be looking into that.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 16:30:00
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I thought the maximum velocity value for a DX7 was 117 or maybe 110, a little higher than you think. Adding a value live on the way in of 20 should take it up to where it is meant to go. You won't notice the addition down the low end of the playing range so much but you will up the high end. I had the original DX7 too but did not use it as a controller. Even though the velocity went almost up there that last little bit is quite significant in terms of getting the maxiumum out of some other instruments and now VST's.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Beepster
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 16:38:29
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Hiya, Jeff. The Wiki page is saying it's 100 but perhaps that's wrong. Many other sites are mentioning the same value but they may just be referencing the wiki entry. I'll have to do some tests to see what's up but I think for general usage you're right that I probably won't miss the lower values. I'm a hack on the keys anyway. ;-p Hope things are good on your side of the world. Cheers.
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brundlefly
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 17:08:50
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Jeff Evans I thought the maximum velocity value for a DX7 was 117 or maybe 110, a little higher than you think. Adding a value live on the way in of 20 should take it up to where it is meant to go.
All the previous posts I've seen around here have also referenced a peak velocity of 100. In any case, I think it's important to emphasize that any real-time velocity scaling/offset done by SONAR is applied at the output, not "on the way in". The velocities will not be recorded with any scaling or offset.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 17:33:17
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Hi Beeps I am well except that dog in my avatar did not make it though. We lost her recently to old age (14 1/2) so that was not too bad an innings as they say. Very sad not having her around though. I miss her a lot. She was very good friend and a great dog. Carried on a like a puppy for most of her life. (except for the last year or two, she slept a lot) One way to really find what the max velocity is to use some software that will show you the velocity value after you play it. And hit it as hard as you can. You can add velocity on the way in but perhaps through external means. (Yamaha MEP 4 perhaps) Or can you insert some sort of midi plugin (Franks Midi Plugins) in Sonar where you can add velocity on the way in. Having it being applied on the output is not much use as you won't hear the sound you want on the way in, and that is what is important. Basically the original DX7 sucks (as a controller) and you should really forget about it and use something else. If you like the sound, invest in FM8, you will get that sound absolutely. There may have even been a mod you could install in a DX7 that gave you extra memories and fixed the velocity issue. You never know you may find it somewhere. I did like the action of the original DX7 keyboard though. (Same as Korg M1 I think) Very playable.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Beepster
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 17:54:31
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I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of your puppy, Jeff. That is a good run though. Her fuzzy face reminds me of my friends dog who was the sweetest thing and sadly she went as well. Maybe they'll meet up over Rainbow Bridge. ;-) As far as the DX I can't really afford to replace it so I'll have to work with it for now and it does play really sweet. I've seen some little hardware solutions out there but again money needs to go into other studio stuff first (as well as rent/food/etc). I think I've got some good workable solutions from this thread to get my performances down and any really intricate nuances can be edited in PRV afterward. Just gotta mess around with it at this point. Cheers and thanks (to all).
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brundlefly
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 19:11:02
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Jeff Evans Having it being applied on the output is not much use as you won't hear the sound you want on the way in, and that is what is important.
I'm assuming the sound source is a soft synth, not the DX7 itself. But if it is the DX7 playing it by MIDI echo (the preferred setup for external keyboard synths) would let the higher output velocity have an effect.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Could use some insight into velocity curves to compensate for first gen DX-7 limitatio
2013/09/24 19:25:13
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There are some hardware solutions that connecet between the DX7 itself and the midi input to your DAW but they are not cheap. Around $130 or so which is quite a lot. http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htmhttp://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm The Mod I was talking about was by a mob called Grey Matter Response and the mod was called E!. It lets you set the lower and upper limits for velocity. (as well as many other things like extended patch memory etc) This would be the cheapest option, it is just a matter of keeping an eye out for one on ebay etc. And you will have to open it up and install it yourself! You might pick up an old Yamaha MEP 4 for a song too which is a serious piece of single rack gear that does a lot of stuff to the midi signal. Very cool but a complicated thing to use. You could just ask it to scale the velocity up or add a fixed amount on the way through. Have not seen one for a while though. But if you don't mind using your DX7 with say any instrument VST or otherwise and it seems to respond OK to the limited velocuty reach than you should be OK. As you say you can always input the data and modify it after.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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