Jesus walks on water, cures the blinds, raise the dead, raises from death, appears to his disciples and then ascends to heaven... If scientific evidence did not strongly disagree that any of this was at all possible, there would be no miracle. And hardly a reason to believe.
 
Christian faith is the belief that a supreme being can act beyond the laws of physics and nature. Trying to prove how this all make sense scientifically or rationally is a non-sense.
 
Reason says Jesus would have sunk in the water. You can't have it both ways - either you go with reason and he sunk, either you go w/ faith - he walked on water. No amount of scientific evidence could back you up there. Worst, if you could explain it scientifically, it wouldn't be a miracle anymore.
 

I think science is wonderful. Love it. I always got A's in science in school. But I also believe in Christ. I imagine when God created the Universe there was a pretty Big Bang. The stars, the galaxies, planets, everything has to be created by something. God. I would imagine He used science. He created everything. Even Science.

He blows my mind.

Again. I am not on Gods level in terms of understanding how and why's or what's of everything. I can't possible understand everything. He's God. If I understood How he mades miracles happen or how he walked on water or healed the sick and raised the dead then.... I would be his equal. I am not.

Could you imagine being in Gods level and equal to Him. I wouldn't need Him then.

Anyway.

Yes! Science! Love it. It interest me a lot and I find it fascinating. Especially space. I am bummed NASA got the shaft from Obama.


But it doesn't stop me from loving The Lord or being thankful that He saved me from myself.


I can't look at the beauty of earth or space and think .... It was all just random.

God created it. He is more awesome than I can even wrap my mind around.


Heres a cool link of Scientist who believed in God.

http://www.godandscience....tics/sciencefaith.html

This is actually an amazing video ...it's about 30 minutes long if you watch all 5 parts....God and science ...who'd a thunk it.... My Church played it a few years back .... It's pretty good I think for believers or not

http://youtu.be/ewKtSKbWZUI

yorolpal
Well Paul, ol pal, god doesn't seem to think as highly of you or us as you do of him. What would you say to the folks who have lost their wives, husbands, parents and children...CHILDREN...to the storm in the Phillipines? Explain gods wisdom to them. Tell them about he's made things so much easier and pleasant for you. Give em a Christian style pep talk. Alleviate their grief...their misery. Go on...have at it. By all means pray for guidance first. Then let er rip.

That's a great question.

God doesn't promise any pain or suffering. He doesn't promise a tomorrow here on earth. He does promise an eternity in heaven though.

Sometimes God let's pain happen to teach us something. Sometimes we just never know.

I've been mad at God before. I think he understands when we are mad at him too. I will probably be mad at him again at some point. Even  Christ yelled at Him "Why have you forsaken me"

Somedays quite honestly it would be easier not to believe.

I am at the point in my relationship with God that he would know I was lying to him if I tried to turn my back.

All I can say to that the suffering we go through here is we are a fallen world. So bad things happen. Sin is all around us. Sometimes we can't learn and grow without feeling pain. If it was all happy happy happy we wouldn't need to grow. Pain helps us to grow.
 
PAIN MAKES US GROW!

That isn't a good enough answer for some people I know. At times it's not for me either. But I can tell you this.... If I understood God completely.... He wouldn't be God. Again... Because that would mean I am somewhere around his level of intelligence. Reality is he's God and I am NO WHERE near his intelligence. And there are a lot I just don't know.

Pain helps us to grow. 

In the mean time prayer for those who are in pain. Help in any way you can. Those are good things to do if you're a believer or not. I'd think we can all agree on that.

yorolpal
And what, pray tell, does pain and suffering teach us?

That's for each of us to figure out as we go through these storms and trials in our lives. My storms and trials are sure are different than your storms. But knowing God it's most likely about a change of heart/love. 
 
I have a different walk with Christ than any other person. All of us do.
 
You're walk with Him and your story is your own. Your lessons are your own. 
 
 

Mooch4056

But it doesn't stop me from loving The Lord or being thankful that He saved me from myself.

Bam! There you have it!
 
It's pretty alarming that someone would insist that God exists and saved them from their own inadequacy at taking decisions and handling life's problems in a rational and effective manner. 
 
If life's problems and your own self are too big issues for you, wouldn't it follow that you wouldn't be qualified to determine what's good and what's not? 
 
Someone so messed up that they can't even determine their own best interest and work it out is in no position of suggesting any solution - nor even to appreciate whether the solution he adopted is actually adequate. 
 
I wouldn't ask an heroin addict what's the best solution for fighting suicidal anxiety.
 
You have no other option but to believe that he exists because he saved your life, and that thought continues to save you. 
 
But what's even more alarming is that people would then erect their own shortcomings and inabilities as a standard among human.
 
As you mention, "God" saved you from yourself. You were your own problem. Many religiously-inclined people that I've spoke with had problems similar to yours though - and they also elevated their "defectiveness" as a general human flaw. They blamed it all on the original sin, assumed that we were all as crippled inside as they were, and from there on, God could forgive them what they could not forgive themselves.
 
Problem solved, another saved soul.
 
I don't have such a problem. I have my issues, my mistakes and all, but I work on them using my head and common sense. I deal with life's problem w/ reason. I try to be honest with myself - even when it means having opinions that are not advantageous for me (and that happens). I have empathy. And frankly, my actions don't drastically differ from those of a christian - except when it comes to religious rituals or trying to interfere with other peoples' rights In the Name of... 
 
Honestly, I don't need to be saved. I don't particularly deserve to be saved. I don't see the interest in being saved. This may sound pretentious but to me it's the opposite - to believe that everyone needs to be saved from themselves whether they admit it or not because you were messed up enough that you had to be saved from yourself? Man, that's really pushing it way out there...
 
From there on, there's effectively no limits to what one can do, even fantasize about how God used science. And it's easy to forget that it's entirely natural that we developed a particular affection for sights such as the night sky or leaves on a tree.
 
Just because you cannot believe that it's random does not mean it isn't. In fact, in view of your dependency on faith and supernatural causes, you would not be qualified to determine whether it can or cannot be random. In order for you to be safe, you MUST discard the possibility of randomness. You don't even have a choice.
 
But that shortcoming is not universal.

Mooch4056
Rain. Why do you get to determine what I believe but I don't get to determine anything.

Your just not fair I am telling my mommy on youuuuuuuuuuuuuu!


(Eye roll)

For real I am going to bed.

I'm sure you do get to determine whatever it is that you want to - or at least interpret it so that it seems that you determined it. 
 
Truce, then. Have a good one. :)

I should have said pseudo science yoropal. You know -lots of food science, global warming propaganda stuff like that. Stuff where they can't make up their minds and make accurate predictions but pretend they are scientists.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNLOfKv_hI  Did you know the philosopher Feyeraband said science was a superstition. Have you read any philosophy of science what so ever?
 
Did you know a Catholic was the first to propose the big bang theory. Did you know the Catholic Chuirch has done a tremendous amount of scientific work through its history? Do you know anything about the Catholic Church? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaitre
 
Anyway, have at it guys, thanks for the interesting discussion.
 

"Feyerabend became famous for his purportedly anarchistic view of science and his rejection of the existence of universal methodological rules..." 
 
Really? Of all the philosophers who've debated science and beliefs and knowledge, that's the one you picked? I mean, judging by how you repeatedly slammed me for not knowing science, I was expecting you to quote something pretty hardcore, like Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus or something like that. Teach me once and for all about the limits of science, y' know...(Or maybe I wasn't.)
 
Not even a founding father like Bertrand Russell, you sure? No? I'm guessing that someone who holds an anarchistic view of science and doesn't believe in methodology is indeed your best bet.
 
Oh well, I see your Feyeraband and I'll raise you one Nietzsche - who rejected philosophers, and had quite interesting views on science and faith - and the value of lies and plenty of crazy unorthodox things like that. And also some exquisite views on christianity.
 
 
Anyway, every atheist I know would agree that pseudo-science sucks. But to determine what is pseudo-science... 
 
Honestly, I don't see how someone who claims that there is any truth in any of the following: that a messiah was born out of immaculate conception, that he was the son of God, that he walked on water, cured the blinds, woke the dead, died and came back - I don't see how they think they can get away with calling Global Warming "pseudo-scientific" or complain about propaganda and keep a straight face.
 
 
Regardless, there may be people going completely Gong Ho over climatic change and there is effectively propaganda - people who've transferred the object of their need to believe in an absolute from religion to environment... But they aren't the majority. Anyway, the opposite is equally true - anti-global warming propaganda is also out there. 
 
But even if global warming was not as alarming as it stated, even if it turned out to be a minor bump - what would be so wrong in at least trying to preserve our environment and make the air we breathe and the water we drink a bit less toxic? 
 
I'm not saying that there is no manipulation whatsoever, but, come on! You are ready to omit all the blood that was spilled in the name of your God, centuries of persecution, mass extermination, willing to disregard the fact that the Catholic Church has been found guilty of effectively supporting and facilitating child abuse (because hiding and relocating known sex offenders is just that - moving the wolf to another fold) and you complain about the evil of pseudo-science?
 
Furthermore, it does not give Catholicism anymore credibility, whether there is or there isn't a global warming. Snakes don't talk, guys don't walk on water, dead stay dead, no matter what happens with global warming.
 
As for the work of Lemaître, it is indeed remarkable. Honestly, I don't know how he managed to make it work with strict creationism, but I'm guessing he was pretty "relaxed". People will make the most unlikely things coexist peacefully.
 
The fact that Lemaître was one of them says nothing in favour of Catholicism. It only indicate that Catholicism is an arbitrary and changeable understanding of the teachings of Christ and proves once again that christianity MUST be interpreted - arbitrarily.
 
As for the MANY other catholic men of science, well, I wouldn't be so sure that the scientific community did not receive torture and death from the Catholic church in an hundredfold...

jamesg1213
 
Not a very hospitable place for humans though, is it? Especially when we're so physically frail compared to just about all the other species living on it. 2/3 of it under water, all that desert, the frozen wildernesses..someone hadn't thought things through I reckon.

I have thought about that as far back as I can recall.
I've always wondered about the place we're from; what was it like?
 
I got a kick out of Prometheus but it seem strange that they left
symbols to lead us to a planet that they used and not directions to
their "home" planet....but then when I think about "us" I think I know
why. I mean if I could get away I wouldn't leave a trail either.
 
 

@backwoods:  Sure, who could argue with Richard's premise that there's a lot of pseudo-science and "false experts"?  Again, that doesn't mean we throw out all well done science as well does it?  That can't be what your saying.  Is it?  And as to the catholic physicist, his findings speak more to his being a physicist than a catholic.  There are many great scientists who were and are "god believers".  Why one of the two fellers that figured out DNA coding is.  So what?  As you yourself just argued, some scientists get things wrong;-)
 
And, oh yeah, your passing remark about global warming "propaganda" made me remember a previous thread...you're the one who gets your info from Fox News, right?