Coffee tables are even worse.

backwoods
Steve, yeah they did not do it in the name of atheism just like "virgin' teachers don't do their deeds in the name of religion. Pretty basic I would have thought. 

 
I never implied that they did. What I said was: "Why should I respect anyone whose religion not just ignored, but arguably fostered an environment in which middle-aged male 'virgins' took sexual advantage of small boys and girls entrusted to their care?"
 
You cannot seriously believe that the Catholic Church didn't operated a 'look the other way' policy with regard to known paedophile priests in its ranks? It's common knowledge that in the past if one of them was implicated in such behaviour, the matter was hushed up and the 'offender' quietly moved to another parish.
 

backwoods
 
Logic states that just because you cannot prove something doesn't exist, it doesn't automatically follow that it doesn't exist.  Back to school for you Strummy. 

 
No Backwoods (do you have a 'real' name we could use, this seems so impersonal) - I meant exactly what I said, read it again.
 
Just because I can't prove that god doesn't exist, that doesn't make his existence any more likely. Neither does it make your assumption that he does exist any more valid.
 
 

Politics and Religion.  Two of the biggest wastes of time and generators of conflict ever - no wonder they're against the TOS!

I'm afraid you misquoted there, ol pal. Pretty horrifically.

Still slowing back out here....... nope, if you are talking to the table, to my knowledge I did not misquote. I'm just on a different wave to you yoropal.
 
thanks for not being nasty steve- I must admit it is a major fault of mine.

"Are you suggesting that a predisposition for belief in god/gods is genetic in nature?"
 
I didn't say *predisposition* I said "evolutionary", and yes I was suggesting, as a possibility, that the biology of the brain and the mind/body connection that we regard as spirit or Qi may have adapted to enjoy the benefit of belief, but of course I can't prove that.
 
 
 
"I really thought you were better than that Mike."
 
Judge and jury.
 
 
 
 
best regards,
mike
 
 

It's funny how some believers will make the outrageous claims and then demand that we atheist prove that their claim is wrong. 
 
Same as if I swore to you that my dead grandfather used to be able to fly and claimed that you had to prove that wrong. If I make the claim, I have to back it up, don't I?
 
I'm pretty sure no one would accept that it's true because the ghost of the old man told it to my mother in a dream...
 

mike_mccue

SteveStrummerUK
"Are you suggesting that a predisposition for belief in god/gods is genetic in nature?"
 
I didn't say *predisposition* I said "evolutionary", and yes I was suggesting, as a possibility, that the biology of the brain and the mind/body connection that we regard as spirit or Qi may have adapted to enjoy the benefit of belief, but of course I can't prove that.

 

Eh? We as a species are 'predisposed' to perform certain actions and do certain things as a result of our evolution.
 
It's why we don't have to consciously think about breathing, or why we automatically recoil from a painful stimulus.
 
It could be argued that less tangible traits such as benevolence to other members of our species, and familial and romantic love are part of our genetic makeup and are inherited.
 
 

mike_mccue
 

SteveStrummerUK
 "I really thought you were better than that Mike."
 

 
Judge and jury.
 
 

 
Now you're getting it ...
 
Silence, and kneel before me .

people see the same thing differently rain:
 
how many f's?
 

 FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE-
   SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF-
   IC STUDY COMBINED WITH
   THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS.

Lots of people get this question wrong!

backwoods
 
It's not about literal meaning though- that's what people who don't have faith don't get.

But there are millions and millions of fundamentalists out there who do take the bible at its word. That it is the immutable word of an omnipresent and omniscient god.
 
And the irony here is that they look down on the pick 'n mix moderates who look for metaphors when it suits them (and literality when it also suits them) as not being the true believers.
 
For such an all powerful deity, he sure made a right pig's ear of explaining in his holy book exactly what he meant to say.
 
The fact that you say "It's not about literal meaning" also opens up the possibility that to understand it, we need to have (self-appointed) interpreters who are for some reason able to unlock what it all means. And these people are humans, not gods, so how can we know that they've got it right?
 
Can you imagine the operating instructions for a camera, or the manual for Sonar, being written in metaphor? I'll take literal every time.
 

@Steve:  Why can't a belief be proved wrong?  I don't think this is a particularily hard notion to counter.  Also, feel free to read that one sentence above as "ALL religions AND Atheism" if that helps.
 
As for my beliefs about a separate entity apart from the physical body, you may be able to decide this for yourself.  Just consider that EVERY cell in your body has been replaced at least once (the bones take the longest, seven to ten years, the skin, only a matter of hours or a couple of days) so, if your physical body isn't "you," then what are your other options?  The real question is whether this "you" persists after the supposed complete disintegration of the physical body.  Of course, that then leads to the next complexity of what, exactly, is the "physical" body anyway.  Just scratch the surface of Quantum Mechanics and you'll see that there are many more layers to everything than most people realize.
 
The term "soul" is just another word or label, and another concept that isn't exactly accurate from my point of view.

OK, I'm back. My fellow "non-believer" office manager and I have the "soul" argument all the time. I'm in the electrical and chemical school while she is in the soul or "collective consciousness" school. I do, however, think it might be possible to tap into a collective energy burst if you will, so who knows. I probably shouldn't have watched and taken to heart the movie "Forbidden Planet" when I were a lad. Anywhoo...the ancient, mystical and religious explanatory beliefs continue to inexorably fade away...one by one...as our knowledge base grows. There is no stopping it. And, eventually, the as yet unknown mysteries of the cosmos will be revealed. I'm sorry I won't be around to learn the final truths...but I'm thankful I happen to have been born during a time where that understanding is self evident and I don't have to cower in a cave begging some imaginary being to take the bright flashing lights and the "sky explosions" away. YMMV.

Rain
 
And you know what? The minute that you decide that a non literal interpretation is as valid as anything else, you gave those fanatics the right to interpret the Bible any way they want. That's the door we open. 

This ^^^^^
 
You put it so much better than me Krist.

SteveStrummerUK

craigb
 
Why can't a belief be proved wrong?  I don't think this is a particularily hard notion to counter.

To take my example from above, how could one possibly prove the non-existence of fairies?

You said:
 

SteveStrummerUK
I don't think any religious belief (or for that matter, any intangible belief) can ever be proved wrong.

 
I didn't say that ALL beliefs could be proven wrong (though that could be due to my relatively limited knowledge in this reality).  However, some sure seem to be easy.  Without taking too much time, how about this:  "I believe if I jump out of this plane at 20,000 feet above the airport runway that Divine Intervention will cause angels to save me before I hit the tarmac!"  Don't you think that one could be proven wrong?  I don't have a problem with your statement, only the absoluteness of it.
 
As for your interest in proving the non-existence of fairies, I'd say that all you have to do is find some information about Sir Elton John.

 I'm really upset. I thought there were fairies. The flying kind *ahem*. I guess that might depend on what you call a fairy...never mind...
 
 OK I want to comment but still keep it not unfunny. That's probably not possible under the current circumstances. Strummy I'm sure we could have some real humdinger discussions here with me being an apologist and all that. I do think that the current trend in Atheism tends toward a movement that sure looks like a religion from the outside looking in. With Hitchens, Dawkins and a few others being the leaders. Like Darwin influenced contemporary scientific thought on origins so do the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins influence moral thought or the lack therof. Mind you I'm not an Atheist and I'm looking from the outside in and it sure looks a lot like a religion to me.JMO.  A movement with leaders that are determining the general moral direction of an unsaid number of people.
 
 The Agnositc says there is something, The Atheist says there is nothing, the Theist knows there's something but doesn't know what it is. The Christians need to get organized and trained. What a mess...Mooch look what you started here:)
 
 Let me offer a small attack on us the Christians. Why do we think we know exactly how old the earth is? Where do you read that exactly? Many of us hypothesize and adopt a favorite theory. Theories are usually ok as long as we know they are theories.Don't take said theory use it as a fact and use it as ammo against your opponent. Truth be told it's all mostly theories.Some of the theories are developed pretty well. Data backs up some parts and doesn't other parts. Strummy might argue that he knows within a few million years or not.
 
 Don't approach a cosmologist and attempt to tell him much he doesn't know. Who knows? God could have used the big bang if it happened that way. Things blew up and started to move apart. Lots of these things can hold hands and we don't even realize it IMO. From my perspective which I think is shared by others, the Bible isn't primarily a book of science. It may support science but it doesn't explain it. On the contrary. It is partly a book of the supernatural which by its very nature functions outside known laws and sometimes requires the use of this much misunderstood thing we call faith. Hitchens faith isn't the same faith Christians have.
 
 Now for a small attack on Atheists ( Strummy this won't hurt a bit, if it does I didn't intend it to). The general message you will hear in any atheist circles, that the Bible is totally contradictory and inaccurate. I would say that if you only read the answers as they give them you might be inclined to believe that pitch. Yeah the copyists made a few boo boos in some of the translations.Same with the idea that God is a mean calloused cruel murderer. You will hear plenty of that. This is where I could write a small book in defense of God and how good He is. It is precisely the fact that the Atheist concentrates all his energy on proving the cruelty of this God  and the supposed inaccuracy of the Bible that he totally misses all of those parts about how He loves all of us and wants the best.Why not read the whole book? Take it all into consideration? Strummy we could get deep into why I think the way I do and it would bore at least half the CH. And you likely don't want to hear it. 
 
 As I understand it you want to make your own calls. I totally understand that. We should all be able to choose for ourselves.After all choice is a freedom I think is God given. I don't want to make anyone feel like that. I'm glad I never felt as if something were being shoved down my throat.
 
 In these days my perception is that those people who seem to be Christians are backward in sharing anything. Maybe I live in the wrong part of the country to be objective about that. I only walk in my own shoes. I have maybe had Jehovahs Witnesses stop by the house once or twice in 10 years. I'm pretty strong willed and they don't usually hang around my place for very long. I consider that to be a cult. I had the local Mennonites stop by to offer their Bible school if I had kids. That doesn't bother me. Most Christian people I know wouldn't dream of forcing anything. Some are prone to share if the person wants to be shared with. So unless you are offended by seeing a church on the corner or seeing Judeo Christian concepts written into laws I'm not quite grasping the concept of being force fed, but as I say, I haven't been everywhere and seen everything.
 
 Ol Pal I think science has gotten us a long ways. I agree that it will continue to move us forward. I guess I would kindly part with you on thinking that it alone is the answer to all of our ills. It might eventually unravel a ton of the worlds problems. Since science is the effort of humans though I doubt that it will ascend us to godhood. I had better stop now my little pea brain is starting to smoke.