RSI/ergonomic issues - advice? Better Mouse?

OT, though it's affecting my ability to use Sonar, big time: I've got a pretty bad repetitive stress injury, mostly in my right hand from using the mouse. As one migh expect, there is a ton of stuff out there advertised to help.

Has anyone used any of these product, specifically different types of mice, like the one that looks like a joystick and keeps the hand in a more neutral "handshake" position?

Also, anyone have any really really good keyboard shortcut maps or ideas they'd be willing to share? I'm going towards eliminating the mouse as much as possible, so any brilliant ideas there would be great.

Finally, I'm using a Mackie MCU Pro with Extenders. Anyone have good ideas on mapping the function and/or using the M1-M4 keys in a really efficient manner?

I'm going to do experimenting, but I figured I'd check with my friends on the Sonar forum as well - for the best advice.

Find a mouse that slopes right to left (if you are right-handed). Microsoft, Logitech, Kensington, etc..


http://www.ergodirect.com/default.php?cPath=234

You may also want to consider an ergonomic keyboard. One the that tents and splays. That will significantly reduce stress and strain by creating a neutral position that is right for you.

http://888ergodir.com/page/ErgoDirect/CTGY/GTKB?gclid=CJDVo4S1m5gCFUog3godOV9hmw

The first thing I look for in a mouse is how easy the left button operates. Even in the same brand there can be a huge difference between models. Get one with a hair trigger left button.

Next the position of the mouse. I use one of those under desk keyboard trays that is wide enough for both the keyboard and mouse pad. Try to get the mouse at a position so your arm is not under stress.

+1 on the trackball. I switched to one for space reasons (really) but it's definitely not so hard on the wrist/hand etc.

Trackball here, have been using one for a long time now. It doesn't even take 15 minutes for my wrist to start to hurt when using a mouse.

I went through that about 10 years ago. Completely debilitating. I couldn't take time off from work where I use the computer for everything, plus I was doing a lot of CAD design at that time which is mouse heavy. Luckily we have some ergonomics experts in the health and safety group, and lots of information to read through.

My biggest solution to get through the short term was to use my left hand for the mouse. Yes, I'm right handed. I never went back to the right hand mouse! One reason is that, for the right hand, the mouse should be where the number pad is. Mouse on the left side of the keyboard lets you center the keyboard in front of you and still have the mouse close at hand. Reaching for the mouse is bad ergonomics. Everything should be close to the body.

I also switched to a trackball (Logitech Marble Mouse), and found that to be better for several reasons: 1) Once the pointer speed is adjusted, it has much better cursor precision, yet easier to move the cursor far and fast -- both with simple motions 2) It takes up much less desk space and doesn't require you to reposition it on occasion 3) It tends to keep your arm positioned with a straight wrist which is more ergonomic 4) it takes the micro movements away from the large muscles around the shoulder (I think the finger muscles are better suited for this).

It took me about 2 weeks to get the left hand muscles to be fast and precise enough to not notice I was using the "wrong" hand. I expect the same from most musician as we tend to have already trained the left hand -- fingering keyboards and guitars and such.

Ergonomic keyboard is also a huge relief. Even today, when I have to do heaving typing on a normal one for more than a few minutes, I can feel the strain.


Ergonomics

Just in case you haven't found this information already, it's important to have the wrists straight, and elbows & knees bent no more than a right angle (for extended periods). This is better for blood circulation, and possibly pinching nerves. The straight wrist is important so the tendons don't rub against the carpel tunnels in the wrist while you move your fingers (think of a rope sliding over the edge of a cliff ).

Google "computer ergonomic positioning" for lots of information.

Also note if you find your shoulders in a "shrugged" position. Mousing involves muscles in the neck, shoulders, and pecs. Even though my pain was in the wrist it was when a therapist gave me stretches for the shoulder area (especially the pecs!) that relief came. Ask and I'll detail some of these stretches

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Another +1 for a Trackball. I've used a Kensington Expert Mouse for years and I've been very happy with it and with their support.

-Susan

I went to a kensington trackball, when my wrist started to play up....I have not experienced any issues of wrist pain since.

cheers

Wiz

Thank you all so much, I think I recognize the seriousness of the issue and will have it addressed immediately. Jim - I'm totally with the PT thing; I've had 8 knee surgeries and a spinal fusion, and the only thing that got me on my feet was PT. It took a while to find a good one, but when you do, it's like night and day (from a bad PT).

I've started using the trackball, can't tell if it's better yet b/c I think a lot of my problems are rooted in my thumb, or at least manifest there. Interesting that one is not supposed to rest wrists! All those gel strips and such lead one to believe that you should be resting wrists while typing, while the opposite is true: you should be hovering, using arms/shoulders for most movement around the keyboard.

I appreciate all the input very VERY much. I knew this was the place to go.

Thanks to you especially, Info@

I drew CAD for a living for several years and eventually realized that moving a mouse to control a computer is like moving the table saw instead of the board when you are cutting wood,slow innaccurate and fatiguing. I bought one of these (Logitec Marble Mouse 20 bucks) and will never go back. Buy one if you dont like it I'll buy it from you. They look like this
trackball

ORIGINAL: maxsax

I have pain in my right index finger from clicking and using the scroll wheel. Does a trackball relieve your index finger from clicking?

Probably not, I don't really know 'cos I've never had pain from using a mouse so can't really say whether using a trackball is any different. Depends on the trackball of course but most of my work is done with my thumb (the ball) and first (left click) and middle finger (wheel and right click). I use one mainly because I have very little space and this doesn't need as much as a mouse. It is much bigger than a mouse though so the whole hand is more supported.

Sorry if that isn't much use, I don't suppose you know anyone who has one you can try or maybe visit a computer store and see if they have one set up on a display model.

Thanks FBB,
Your reply was very helpful. Sounds like a trackball would relieve my index finger. Which trackball do you use?

Jim - got my PT appointment for next Monday, so thanks for the push.

Xavier - your post is interesting and it's something I want to try, the left hand thing. One question: did you use the "normal" trackball with your LEFT hand? If so, how, specifically? Or do they sell left-handed trackballs?

It's a bit weird to use a regular trackball with the left hand - at any rate, the idea of using the left hand for the mouse is very very intriguing b/c it's the mouse that's the biggest problem.

Also - what about the air mouse?

Or the one that looks like a joystick - saw it on some specialist site, not something they sell at Staples or even a computer store.

Thanks so much.

yes the one I recommended (logitech marble mouse) does because you use your index finger to run the ball and your thumb for left click. Because the index is essentially straight out it feels very natural. IMHO the thumb ball type are much less accurate due to the brutish nature of a thumb compared to an index.

I bought a second one todaynew from ebay for 22.43 shipped, and sears online has them for about a dollar more.

ORIGINAL: maxsax

I have pain in my right index finger from clicking and using the scroll wheel. Does a trackball relieve your index finger from clicking?

This is the trackball I use on pretty much all my computers at work and home. It works equally well for either hand.

The thumb does all of the clicking while the Pinky does the alt-clicking. I've had a sore index finger from mousing but have NEVER found my thumb gets sore using this. Probably just the way the thumb is built??

All the ball action is with the index, middle, and ring fingers. This spreads the load nicely and lets you roll across the fingers when going from one side of the screen to the other.

Like many DAW'ists, I minimize what I install on the PC, so I don't install the Logitech drivers any more. I don't know if this driver feature still exists: you could click both buttons and the ball becomes a scroll wheel, which worked brilliantly. You had precise line-by-line scroll control yet could jump many pages with a free roll of the ball. The page-up/down and arrow keys for scrolling work fine for me anyhow. Plus that varies the actions you are doing, which is recommended by the ego specialists.

I have an old gyro mouse that works in the air and I found it difficult to use, and hard to be precise. Maybe the newer ones are better, but I can't imagine holding it in the air for hours at a time. Plus I jump between the keyboard and mouse constantly - would have to put it down all the time.


I agree with Jim that everyone is different and you have to find what works for you. And some people are much more affected by bad ergonomics than others. However, I hold with the contention that the the proper ergonomic workstation configuration and equipment, used correctly, is going the be the best for the majority of people over the long run, and cause the least physical problems.

So, Treefight, I ask you to consider if maybe it's much more posture/ergonomics causing your problems than repetitiveness stress.

If a body is used to poor posture, it's uncomfortable to use good posture. And it takes a long time to strengthen the body to use proper posture. But I have found it to be worth it.

I am sure an ergonomic keyboard to be a must for good ergonomics because it keeps the wrists in proper position. I would argue that the trackball I use (and I see many others here use) is the most ergonomic mousing device (if used correctly).

IANAD

ORIGINAL: Treefight
Xavier - your post is interesting and it's something I want to try, the left hand thing. One question: did you use the "normal" trackball with your LEFT hand? If so, how, specifically? Or do they sell left-handed trackballs?

It's a bit weird to use a regular trackball with the left hand - at any rate, the idea of using the left hand for the mouse is very very intriguing b/c it's the mouse that's the biggest problem.

Also - what about the air mouse?

Or the one that looks like a joystick - saw it on some specialist site, not something they sell at Staples or even a computer store.

Thanks so much.

Thanks FBB

I'm experimenting with using the other hand for the mouse. But I'll take a look at the trackman as well.