aglewis723
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Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
Hello, Quick question here. Is there any tool to show you the RMS value of a bus? I know I can change the metering but it's hard to tell what the avg RMS is as it is always bouncing back and forth. Right now it looks like pre-mastering I am at -20db approx RMS but I am peaking at -1db. Not good.
Thanks, Adam
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mudgel
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 7:29 PM
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☄ Helpfulby aglewis723 November 12, 13 7:32 PM
I think you've answered your own question. You already know what most of your bus is doing ie -20db, so do something to tame the peaks. Find whether that peak is coming from an individual track or an accumulation of smaller peaks on several tracks. Sort that out and you'll likely be back to an average of -20db which is probably too low. But again that depends on how many other buses your have or whether you were talking about your master bus.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 7:33 PM
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The VU meter is the ideal tool for measuring rms values not just on a buss but anywhere. But what you need to know is that there is more to it. You need to choose and decide on a reference level that you are going to work at and calibrate the VU meter so it shows 0 dB Vu when the reference level is reached. DAW meters are not very helpful showing rms values because they are reading very low on the scale and they are hard to read down there. Also Sonar rms levels are displayed as being 3 dB lower than most other DAW's because they are showing the true rms value as being 3 dB down on the peak of the continuous sinewave test signal. But that is another story. Real VU's are best but there are some pretty decent VST's out there as well. This being one of them: http://klanghelm.com/VUMT.html Good to see you interested in it actually. It is more important to keep rms values constant throughout your production ie tracks busses and the master buss. As long as the ref level is reasonable eg -14 or -20 then the peaks take care of themselves. Very transient sounds won't move a VU meter much due to the time constant of the VU meter ballistics but this is when you read your peak meters a lot more. Once a bunch of transient sounds (eg drums) end up on a buss the VU will work perfectly well then. What your describing as a signal averaging -20 dB rms with peaks getting close to -1 dB is not uncommon. It could just mean you have got some very transient sounds on there that is all. If that is the case -20 dB would be the preferred ref level for you to work at then.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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aglewis723
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 7:33 PM
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mudgel I think you've answered your own question. You already know what most of your bus is doing ie -20db, so do something to tame the peaks. Find whether that peak is coming from an individual track or an accumulation of smaller peaks on several tracks. Sort that out and you'll likely be back to an average of -20db which is probably too low. But again that depends on how many other buses your have or whether you were talking about your master bus.
Thank you for your reply. Quick question about your statement about -20db being too low for a pre-master. I thought that was OK in 24-bit land. I am expecting to master it up to about -9db. Should I make my pre-master a bit louder? Thank You, Adam
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 7:36 PM
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☄ Helpfulby southpaw3473 November 12, 13 8:50 PM
NO -20 db as ref level for a premastered mix is perfectly fine. It just means though if you want to end up at -9 dB you are going to have add 11 dB of rms gain to your track. Which is quite a lot but Here are some ways of doing it though: You do not master at the time of the mix. Export the mix as a premastered file. Wait a week and master this separate premastered stereo file in a separate session. Any advice contrary to this is simply incorrect. Period. Mixing into some slight two buss compression is not mastering and quite acceptable. In fact if I know I am aiming for a loud master I often do it. It can help a lot. -10 dB rms for pop music is not loud at all. Average mastered pop levels are closer to -7 dB rms. I agree that -10 or -12 dB rms would be nice but it is not that way in reality. (for Hip Hop even -6db rms is common) In the following I am referring to rms levels. Peak levels should be up around between -0.1 to -0.2 dB FS. (in your final master that is) VU meters (real or VST) make it much easier to read rms levels. Boost 11 limiter is one of the worst limiters on the planet so you will never get what you are looking for with that one. Get rid of it. Obtaining loud masters is a series of processes and each process should not be drastic in nature but smaller. There are some simple steps one can do to obtain loud masters. 1 The Pre mastered track needs to put into an editor and the average rms level assessed. Often the peaks are high in the premastered track and the rms levels are a little low. Peak limiting your unmastered track to say -3db and then raising the gain of the entire track 2 dB will increase the rms level by 2 dB with little change to the dynamics. Sometimes a premastered track might be peaking up to -1 dB but have an average rms level of -20 dB. In these cases this editing approach is even more important. I might then limit the peaks to -7dB FS and add 6dB of gain to the whole track. The track will get 6 db louder and still retain lots of dynamics. Now you have just added 6 dB of gain saving a whole lot of gain adding later. Pre-preparation in a decent editor is almost vital before mastering actually begins. 2 The EQ is there to redefine your overall EQ. You can sometimes add 1 dB or so to the overall level after the EQ. Check the level going IN and coming out of the EQ 3 Compression only needs to be slight eg 2 to 3 dB gain reduction, slowish attack to let transients through. But the good news is you can add some makeup gain here usually about 2 dB At this point if your tracks started at rms of say -15 dB you have added 5 to 6 dB of rms gain so you are in the ball park now even before the limiter. Even if you have added only 4 dB you are now at say -11 db rms. 4 The limiter should only be adding 3 to 4 dB max of rms. I use PSP Xenon. It is probably one of the best limiters on the planet and it can add 4dB very cleanly without destroying your mix. It is expensive but there are other limiters out there that could add say 3 dB of rms value to your track and cost less and not destroy your mix. Now you should be up to -7dB rms and still sounding loud and punchy. One stage alone will not achieve this, it is a series of things that you have to do and a little here and there but it all adds up. Some Extra Tips Be careful of the multiband compressor. You have to get all the bands gain reducing the same amount otherwise the EQ of the track can be easily thrown out. I am not a fan of multiband compressors. Some say they are good for solving problems with a difficult mix. If your mix is great then you don't necessarily need it. I prefer full range single band compressors and this is one of the best I have heard and it is free: http://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-feedback-compressor-2/ Very important. Limiters (and Xenon included) do not like it when the bass end is out of control. Out of control bass will smash the limiter first and destroy your mix fast! You must get the bottom end of your mix perfect and it all starts right back at the LP64 EQ. Watch the GR meter in the limiter and see what part of the music is kicking it down hard. If it's the bass then your bass end is wrong. Sort it then check again. You will find when the limiter is responding to all of the music equally you are in much better place. You can then easily add 3 or 4 dB rms to your track without any distortion or breakup. PSP Xenon is on special right now too and it is a good time to invest in it if you can. Danny has made a good point too in that Xenon does not always limit certain styles the best. He also uses the Waves L3 (L2?) I think and he points out that it does a slightly better job on certain genres. (Power rock, heavy metal, more crunchy styles.) I don't doubt him. I would like the L3 as my second limiter choice too but it is also not cheap either. I think Xenon can handle a wide variety of styles though and well.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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gswitz
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 8:19 PM
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Jeff, You make these amazing posts that seem brilliantly knowledgeable. Every time I try to put it into practice I'm instantly frustrated. Maybe I'm just lazy or stuck in my habits. I can't help just listening and pushing up and down the levels as I want to hear them.
Granted, my mixes are pretty simple. And I've sent the tracks out to RME Digital sends so I can apply the RME DigiCheck software and set my reference level and try it. Maybe I'm lazy. I'll try it again. You post is so sincere and you are so totally convinced it's a good thing that I just HAVE to do right just once, even if that's the last time I do it.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 8:48 PM
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Ok... Here's an image of me trying... All of the RME Plugs are set up for the K-System 20. The bar on the far Right should be the average loudness. The vocal tracks are a little louder than the others. Guitar2 FX and Guitar 2 Don't overlap greatly and the Guitar2 FX is only up during his lead. So, how did I do, doing it by ear? What would your take-aways be from this info? BTW, in order to get one for each interface out, I create a send Post fader on every track and pan it all left or all right. I know this is not quite the same, but it's kinda close.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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bitflipper
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 9:12 PM
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RMS is an average value, typically over a 50 ms period. "Average RMS" is an average of averages, over a longer period. RMS meters won't do you any good for the latter, and SONAR has no built-in capability of calculating it (wish it did!). You'll need to use a tool that keeps a running average over time, or an external audio editor that offers an average RMS calculation. There is an older freebie plugin that will display RMS over an arbitrary period. It's called "RMS Buddy". A more up-to-date tool would be an EBU Loudness meter such as the one offered by Toneboosters. That'll give you short- and long-term loudness values, which isn't the same as RMS but may actually be more useful, depending on why you want to know this information about your busses. SPAN has a field labeled "RMS", but I've never been able to make sense of it. It does appear to be a cumulative calculation, but it jumps around even with a steady sine wave. Consequently, I've never been able to use it for anything.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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mudgel
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 12, 13 9:18 PM
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Sort of makes my very basic post pale by comparison. I just figured that -20db on a bus even a master bus with a -1db peak would make the -20 db significantly lower once the -1db peak was tamed still think that.
As to anything else, without knowing the type of music, arrangement, track and bus configuration, fx used etc etc. that might cause that peak or if it's a result of improper gain staging, there's too much missing information on which to offer much advise that isn't pure speculation.
Geoff sure knows his stuff that's all I can say.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 13, 13 3:39 AM
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Thanks to Jeff, I now own the metering suite from Blue Cat, and whilst again these aren't cheap, they are very, very good as an analytical tool.
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gswitz
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 13, 13 5:27 AM
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mudgel
Geoff sure knows his stuff that's all I can say.
You just have to mean Jeff. ;-) For just a 1/2 a second I was really flattered. Geoff
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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mudgel
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 13, 13 5:33 AM
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Haha. Sorry for the misdirected flattery. But I did mean Jeff Evans. In any case just ignore this post and take the comment for yourself.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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gswitz
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 13, 13 6:25 AM
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Thanks, Mudgel!! I'll take what I can get. :-) You know, I think I know one of my problems with the system. For me, I get so much bleed between Mics I sometimes have too much of one thing and not enough of another because of the bleed. For example, one this tune... http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20131110_Vineyard_SJGDavid_07_MondayMorning.mp3 The female singer with the tambourine is a problem. The tambourine is going into her mic and into the waist high mic for the guitar next to her. So, I'm getting too much tambourine. If I turn down her vocal to be level with the others (almost 5 dB in this case), then her Vocal part will be too quiet.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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SuperG
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Re: Determining The RMS Value Of A Bus
November 13, 13 6:51 PM
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Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro would be a good prescription for this type of issue. The product has everything you need for viewing and measuring RMS values. It provides the ability to adjust the RMS time period as well. Of course it has the standard VU, Peak, and Crest meters, K-System settings, etc.. - and it can output many of its measurements as automation data. Er, uh, and you can get it from the Cakewalk store...
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