Tracks routed to Kontakt multi exhibit mute/solo grouping - ARGH!

So I convinced myself to replace 3 instances of Kontakt in a project with one multi instance containing all 3 instruments - a much more efficient use of resources. It was fairly easy to reroute the tracks in question to their respective Kontakt i/o's and all instruments are receiving MIDI and playing as expected. 
 
However, I'm now faced with the fact that these tracks are grouped because they're all associated with the same instance of Kontakt. The tracks are Keys1, Keys2 and Bass. If I solo the Bass MIDI track then not only does the Bass audio track get soloed, but also the Keys1 and Keys2 audio tracks. If I solo the Bass audio track then not only does the Bass MIDI track get soloed but also the Keys1 and Keys2 MIDI tracks as well. Therefore, treating these as separate instruments when muting and soloing is nigh on impossible. 
 
I figure this is because they are all routed to the same synth - Sonar doesn't care that they are routed to different outputs of the same synth. Is there any way of changing this behavior (or a simple workaround), or am I doomed to tear my hair out in frustration every time I use a Kontakt multi? 

None of the tracks are in folders yet. They grouping is purely because they're all linked to the same synth and does not appear to be configurable. I have multiple outputs configured internally inside of Kontakt, and each instrument has its own output. These outputs are routed to their respective audio tracks in Sonar. 

Ah. Now I understand.

This isn't just about Kontakt, is it? It applies to all multi-timbre synths with multiple outs like TTS-1, M1, and Sampletank. I don't think there's anything wrong with the behavior (although I didn't like it at first). How about in other daws? I must check S1.
 
HOWEVER, the real problem starts when you GROUP the solo buttons of MIDI tracks and audio tracks. Maybe you can try it, too, and you'll see that soloing tracks doesn't work properly in the PRV. I sent in a bug report and it was confirmed as a bug.

I just checked S1, and yes, the behavior is exactly the same.

It would have to be an option, because it would also disable the ability to solo a midi channel, then switch instruments (that are routed to different audio tracks) by changing the send channel on your controller.
 
That would be very bad me thinks :-)
 
I think the answer to this might be "Don't Solo the MIDI Channel".
Sound crazy ?. Try it.
 
Soloing the audio track also solos all the MIDI tracks, because it too, has no real way to tell which MIDI track you might decide to send data from.
 
I think it's a case of choosing which you solo (audio or midi), and then that's the group you have to take notice of. Maybe hide the others ?.
 
To me, the current behaviour makes total sense, and I think would essentially "break things" to change it.
 
Cheers - Cliff

brundlefly

Jlien X
I just checked S1, and yes, the behavior is exactly the same.

That's what I would expect. I think there's an inherent limitation of VSTi technology that the host has no way of knowing what routing of MIDI-to-Instruments-to-Outputs is going on inside the synth so it has to include all outputs when soloing a MIDI track that points at that synth to ensure that whatever instrument that track is driving is audible. Possibly VST3 addresses this somehow, but I don't know.

I also think that is the case. Solo/mute is not really bugging me, though ... Try freezing one track that's routed to a sysnth in a Kontakt rack and it'll freeze all that is in the rack, which even on a fast DAW takes a while if you have e.g. Abbey Road drums routed via 16 Outs in the same rack as the synth you want to freeze.
 
That's why it's more conventient to have several instances of Kontakt, BUT recently I had troubles where one instance of Kontakt would start behaving badly (not wanting to freeze at all / causing crashes at project open) but I'm not sure if that's due to multiple K5 instances, Sonar project migration from X2 to X3, project corruption or just a K5 issue ... life's just too complicated to know anything for sure ;-)
 

Lance Riley [Cakewalk]
I find that if you group the solo buttons by right-clicking the control and selecting a color/Letter from the midi track to the audio track you get the behavior you intend. The mutes would have to also be grouped individually if you want both to work. I tried this with session drummer using separate midi tracks going to separate audio outs like this:
 
Snare Midi Solo - Red Group
Snare Audio Return Solo - Red Group
Kick Midi Solo - Green Group
Kick Audio Return Solo - Green group
etc...

Interesting, I will try this. I did toy with the idea of playing with grouping but I thought it would just confuse me even more...

sharke

Lance Riley [Cakewalk]
I find that if you group the solo buttons by right-clicking the control and selecting a color/Letter from the midi track to the audio track you get the behavior you intend. The mutes would have to also be grouped individually if you want both to work. I tried this with session drummer using separate midi tracks going to separate audio outs like this:
 
Snare Midi Solo - Red Group
Snare Audio Return Solo - Red Group
Kick Midi Solo - Green Group
Kick Audio Return Solo - Green group
etc...

Interesting, I will try this. I did toy with the idea of playing with grouping but I thought it would just confuse me even more...

 
Lance, that's what I meant in my earlier post. I used to do it but I stopped it. Because, as I said, soloing doesn't work properly in PRV's Track pane. Try it. You'll see what I mean.