Dave Modisette
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 10:01:14
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Dyonight
Reaper is my deliverance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N24juufOOG8
Thanks for sharing. It's been a while since I've opened up Reaper, I need to take another look at it. The workflow reminds me a bit of Wave Warp in Pro Tools. I've been working exclusively in PT lately simply because of the Tempo Mapping and Wave Warping features. Audio Snap will do the job for me if I work at it but I feel more in control doing the same sort of editing when I'm using competing products.
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Dyonight
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 10:22:03
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FastBikerBoy
There are some freebie videos on Audiosnap on my youtube page and it's covered in depth in my SWA X2 Complete video (links for both in my sig).
Audiosnap isn't the most intuitive part of the program but I've found that a few basic housekeeping tasks before use make a huge difference to how successful you'll find it.
One of the most important is to trim and bounce clips before even opening audiosnap, stray noises such as studio chit chat at the start of clips will create havoc.
Make sure the project tempo is roughly correct before starting which will save a heap of time adjusting the tempo map. Drag clips and line up the first down beat with a measure line also helps.
An accurate tempo map is also important.
After I spent an awful long time using a "suck it and see" approach and finding out about some of those tips the success I had with audiosnap went up tenfold. The biggest problem I used to have was the dreaded "tempo out of range" - bouncing the clip will stop most of that. It's caused by errant transient detection and Sonar thinks it has to generate a tempo greater than 1000 bpm to compensate, hence the message.
To summarize I find it works pretty well (I'd even argue very well) but it does take some learning and could certainly be more intuitive.
Thanks all for your comments, I should describe my workflow a little more to see why I'm becomming crazy with AS: 1. I record a drum take with 18 inputs RECORDED TO THE CLICK by a very talented metal drummer 2. I clone the Snare Trigger and the Kick trigger tracks (for those who don't do it that way, a Ddrum trigger can be recorded through a mic pre (it's a piezo mic in fact) and give a SNAP sound with almost no bleed and with almost no decay, so a very clean and steep attack at each hit.) 3. I go to processing -> remove silence and set it to get rid of EVERYTHING but the attack. 4. I merge both tracks togheter and I bounce to clip. So my reference track is done for audiosnap. Only sharp attack and everything else (micro noise rumble, remember I'm using a piezo track so there's no bleed) is reduced to silence. 5. I open Audiosnap and set it's resolution to 1/4 so I will tighten the drum to every 1/4 beat, leaving the rest "as played". It is at this step that everything goes anywhere: 1st: Sonar do not display the "lasso" when I Lasso-select transients in a project that large. I have to imagine it... 2nd: Even if every transient to be detected are perfectly CLEAN, Sonar sometimes put some markers BEFORE the actual transient. I must even say on a regular basis. 3rd. When I set the treashold to 1/4, Sonar start ok but at some point will INVERT the active transients making the upbeat ON and the downbeat OFF but keep the 1/4 relative distance between them... so I have to manually invert the active/unactive transients. 6. Next, once I manually replaced/double-checked all transients, I "select active trasients" and then add those to the POOL. 7. I select all drum tracks and APPLY POOL TRANSIENTS Here again, one time over two, the POOL will also generate phantom transient (in locations where there is ABSOLUTE silence...) and these out-of-nowhere markers will be quantised as well, so would need to go through the song once again to deactivate them by hand... you're kidding right? All this process took 2+ hours and I have to go through again. With REAPER: See 1st post video. Takes 5 minutes. 99.9% accurate. It just "see" them all and best of all I can tell him if I disagree... I'm still in awe to see how snapy REAPER is.... every functions I've used so far are immediate, glitch free and can be costumised. I couldn't not care less about the GUI since it does what I ask it to do almost perfectly and instantly. But as Pict pointed, there are so much ressources available to change the way it looks or behave and posting an issue to the forum may well be adressed in the next month... At this price, REAPER is here to stay.
post edited by Dyonight - 2014/02/11 10:28:36
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Dave Modisette
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 10:40:13
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SuperG
I'm sure Reaper is a great product, but it's too just hard to get past all the ugly....
Haha. For me, it was the opposite. Some of the user created skins look great. I found myself wasting too much time making Reaper look cool and then every time someone would post a new skin, I'd be doing it all over again.
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brundlefly
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 11:10:12
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Dyonight
So my reference track is done for audiosnap. Only sharp attack and everything else (micro noise rumble, remember I'm using a piezo track so there's no bleed) is reduced to silence. 5. I open Audiosnap and set it's resolution to 1/4 so I will tighten the drum to every 1/4 beat, leaving the rest "as played".
It is at this step that everything goes anywhere:
1st: Sonar do not display the "lasso" when I Lasso-select transients in a project that large. I have to imagine it...
2nd: Even if every transient to be detected are perfectly CLEAN, Sonar sometimes put some markers BEFORE the actual transient. I must even say on a regular basis.
3rd. When I set the treashold to 1/4, Sonar start ok but at some point will INVERT the active transients making the upbeat ON and the downbeat OFF but keep the 1/4 relative distance between them... so I have to manually invert the active/unactive transients.
6. Next, once I manually replaced/double-checked all transients, I "select active trasients" and then add those to the POOL.
7. I select all drum tracks and APPLY POOL TRANSIENTS
If you've got a good reference track in step 4, and I'm understanding the goal , you can throw out steps 5 and 6 and replace them with "Disable all markers on other tracks". You can do this with the Threshold slider or (my preference) select all markers, disable them and promote them so they stay disabled. Then apply the pool markers, select all tracks and quantize to quarters.
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Dyonight
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 11:47:11
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brundlefly
Dyonight
So my reference track is done for audiosnap. Only sharp attack and everything else (micro noise rumble, remember I'm using a piezo track so there's no bleed) is reduced to silence. 5. I open Audiosnap and set it's resolution to 1/4 so I will tighten the drum to every 1/4 beat, leaving the rest "as played".
It is at this step that everything goes anywhere:
1st: Sonar do not display the "lasso" when I Lasso-select transients in a project that large. I have to imagine it...
2nd: Even if every transient to be detected are perfectly CLEAN, Sonar sometimes put some markers BEFORE the actual transient. I must even say on a regular basis.
3rd. When I set the treashold to 1/4, Sonar start ok but at some point will INVERT the active transients making the upbeat ON and the downbeat OFF but keep the 1/4 relative distance between them... so I have to manually invert the active/unactive transients.
6. Next, once I manually replaced/double-checked all transients, I "select active trasients" and then add those to the POOL.
7. I select all drum tracks and APPLY POOL TRANSIENTS
If you've got a good reference track in step 4, and I'm understanding the goal , you can throw out steps 5 and 6 and replace them with "Disable all markers on other tracks". You can do this with the Threshold slider or (my preference) select all markers, disable them and promote them so they stay disabled. Then apply the pool markers, select all tracks and quantize to quarters.
Normally applying pool transients disable all others. In fact what I call the "phantom transients" are not in the original track nor in the pool, they are simply generated when applying pool transients, which is a bug, at least on my system....
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Jyri T.
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 12:07:22
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I often have problems with AS, too. It just works in a highly unintuitive - and sometimes in an utterly weird - way. How it decides to choose/unchoose the transients when you change the treshold is beyond any logic. And working with multiple tracks and long clips is a nightmare.
So I got the Reaper today - just to do the job that Sonar can't deliver. Hope it works better, yet on the video it seems to work - unlike AS - in a straight forward and logical way.
Now I've got Sonar X2 and X3 side by side for mixing (because the pre-X3d-X3 couldn't open some older projects), Sonar 8.5.3 for tracking (because I don't trust the X-series yet enough to use them in "live" situations), Sound Forge (Sony) mostly for analyzing audio clips (that Sonar still can't do thank you very much), Reaper for correcting timing (because AS is a royal PITA) and Presonus Studio One for mastering (because Sonar can't edit ISRC codes or export DDP's).
PS. Now that you have VST3 and ARA is it really so difficult to come up with something that tells you the basic facts of an audio clip --- e.g. peak in dB, peak in RMS dB (with a user-definable RMS time window) and avarage in RMS dB???
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...wicked
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 12:53:47
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Oh okay, they have improved the workflow quite a bit. With v3 every single power function started with "first install swa tools and configure the following actions...." UGH.
I love the transient detection bars that appear with the slider, that's cool. I do think it's funny that there are several workarounds in their own workflow starting from the very first thing you do. "Create a group. Now turn the group off." Hahahaha Same goes for duping the kick drum track. Also, I see Reaper's continued use of drill-down windows makes it easy to get lost or lose the ability to see your tracks whilst editing.
That said, yup, still beats Audiosnap, which out of all the DAWs has the worst workflow for transient and beat editing. But hey, the bakers listen to us more than I've seen other DAWs listen to their own user base (uh, Cubase anyone?). So the more we kvetch about it the more likely it'll get some attention! (I know, it's terrible to even suggest that).
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/11 13:10:46
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I would love AudioSnap to work better for me. I always get some transients before the actual hit and the threshold control responds really weirdly. When it first came out during Pro Audio 7 (?) it was a market leading feature and I remember showing it to my Cubase and Logic using friends who were impressed even if it was a little clunkier and less magical than advertised. Since then all major DAWs seem to have come out with a better working solution, to the point where the virtually free Reaper is preferable even to people who already have Sonar.
I'm really hoping for X4 or X3.5 to thoroughly revise AS.
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Lord Tim
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 03:28:07
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Yep, I have the same phantom maker / random "just before the transient rather than on it" marker issues as everyone else here. For a large kit doing metal with a lot of double kicks, tabbing to each transient on your reference tracks to check where AS has dropped its markers can take as long as doing the necessary clean up after you've quantized. I actually tend to use 8.3 to do most of my quantizing because it's more intuitive to me, although X3 is better than the previous 8.5+ versions I've found. I really like what I'm seeing in that REAPER video, and would love SONAR to have something similar. That's similar to a program I bought ages ago called BeatQuantizer, before SONAR had AS. You could set the threshold levels visually, both the upper and lower threshold, ie: the upper threshold for detecting how loud each hit is and the lower one you can raise to ignore phantom hits from track bleed or ghost notes, etc., like a gate in a way. I'd wager that would solve 99% of those phantom markers AS dumps in before the transient because I've noticed that even a slight, barely audible ripple in the wave is enough to set it off early if there's a period of silence before it. BQ wasn't quite as elegant as REAPER where you can slide things around and have if all visually show you what's happening across tracks, and it was all offline too so you didn't have the luxury to align it with tracks inside a project, so it was fiddly as anything, but the detection was bang-on every time if you set your levels right. AS is great and sounds fantastic but for me very counter-intuitive and does lack some controls to fine-tune what it's listening for. It would be great to do something similar to REAPER where you can just drag a single marker around and everything would move if the tracks are grouped. It's hit and miss if AS will do that and I tend to find I have to manually select groups of markers to make that happen - frustrating. Hopefully we'll see some AS love in X4. 
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Dyonight
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 10:08:24
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Deleted by me. Pointless and unhelpful comment.
post edited by Dyonight - 2014/02/18 12:37:18
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 14:28:25
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I'm hoping for more collaboration with Melodyne. Seems much of the framework is already there.
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Anderton
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 16:09:40
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☄ Helpfulby joel77 2014/02/12 19:34:09
Dyonight
Just for a little laugh, check a part of the Reaper intro text:
"If you currently use another DAW, you might be reading this because you're contemplating shelling out $150 for the next overhyped version that doesn't address any of the bugs you've been complaining about for five years while adding a bunch of features you couldn't care less about."
I must say I feel this way sometimes.... Then look at the bugfix lists when a new version of Sonar or an update is released. Or:
"REAPER is coded by a small group of dedicated engineers, not multiple software units under the central command of product marketing."
It's what I feel Cake have become since X1, load the thing with ton of features, who care if they are optimized, just make the damned thing sells. More or less... ARA integration, speed comping, modern video engine, VST3 support, customizable track/mixer colors, region FX, audio-to-MIDI conversion, QuadCurve equalizer flyout panel with spectrum analysis, Gobbler integration for backup, YouTube publishing, Melodyne pitch correction, vastly improved V-Vocal performance for those still using it, "Always Stream Audio through FX" option...not exactly a bunch of features you couldn't care less about. ARA and VST3 integration alone took a serious amount of effort to include. The plug-ins are on top of that, if you want to pay for them by getting the Producer version instead of Studio. As to the line "REAPER is coded by a small group of dedicated engineers..." that applies to every software company in this industry, and I specifically don't just mean Cakewalk. The pay scale is such that you'd have to be dedicated to code music software...there's a lot more money in smart bombs. However, there is a major difference: these other companies weren't financed by a windfall from selling Winamp and Nullsoft to AOL for $59,000,000. If I had that much money to kick around, I bet I could start a software company, hire some great talent, and sell the product for pretty cheap. This isn't to take ANYTHING away from Justin Frankel, who's brilliant, young, rich, and did the American dream thing to the max. More power to him, and even more respect for not making his money by laundering drug money, foreclosing on widows, or whatever it is the big banks do. Just bear in mind that companies with vast resources from outside the music industry have certain advantages that "pureplay" music industry companies do not.
post edited by Anderton - 2014/02/12 16:21:06
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dubdisciple
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 16:30:48
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People do sometimes forget that Reaper does operate on a business model that probably would not work for most companies. It's the sort of thing I would do if I wer so rich I had no financial need to actually profit. Reaper is great for someone who already has bought tons of third party plugins or (in the interest of being truthful) someone who has pirated thousands of dollars worth of software. For those who actually paid for all those third party plugins, price is probably not the concern. I don't know about you guys, but despite the cheap license, plenty of people never bother to pay for it. Part of the reason is that by the time they pay for the plugins necessary to bring Reaper up to speed with other DAWs, they end up spending as much.
I see so many people go on about how great Reaper is but i rarely see someone who owns another major DAW make the decision to abandon Reaper because, like all DAWs it has its flaws. Customization sounds great but for many it ends up being a big time waster that eats into actually creating music. I have yet to come across a Reaper user who suddenly started making better music after installing his nifty new skin. I'm not bashing Reaper. In fact, from the consumer perspective I applaud them and I am about to learn it better so that i can teach it to students due to price considerations. I just think it is somewhat unfair to compare companies that could not possibly compete with Reaper's business model. I do like how certain features are compared to other DAWs and since imitation is common in this industry, I do hope a little trickles over, but in the big picture there is no way I would ditch Sonar for Reaper.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 17:27:05
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I actually keep hearing really good things about Reaper's basic fx like ReaComp and ReaEQ.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 19:02:18
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Sanderxpander
I actually keep hearing really good things about Reaper's basic fx like ReaComp and ReaEQ.
They are not bad at all...just like the basic fx on most DAWs are pretty good. I think Mixcraft includes the Khaerhaus(sp) classic plugins which are pretty good too. I think it's safe to say that most of us will go beyond the basics and that is non-existent for Reaper. I doubt there is anyone on this forum that only uses one compressor.
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emwhy
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 19:49:30
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Just went back to page 1 of this thread and watched the video posted by rockenobi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH9W1MD80kk The Cake guys get into AS about a third of the way into it. I followed there steps and methods on some drum tracks done last year and it did give me the desired results doing things somewhat manually. The drums were done in a big room with some distance mics so there was a slight delay in the wave files when comparing snare hits. To use a regular quantize option on this would have moved the room mics in to much and caused phase issues. Give the above link a try and you'll see what I mean.
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Silicon Audio
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 21:07:31
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I have to jump in here and pick up on the phantom transient markers. I will often have one or more and it stays detected even when I adjust threshold all the way to least sensitive (where even large transients are no longer detected). This and other bugs, such as markers suddenly refusing to be dragable have wasted so many hours of my life and caused so much frustration, I can no longer bring myself to use AS. I really hope the next version of Sonar gets a lot of love in the AS dept!
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Anderton
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/12 21:19:29
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I don't consider features like Beat Detective et al ways to do MIDI-style quantization to audio, because I think audio is meant to "breathe." However, I often hear something like a guitar chord which hits early or late. It's easy to place a marker at the beginning of the chord with AS, drag it to the correct time, then bounce to clip. For this type of application, AS works fine.
I have a similar philosophy with pitch correction. I choose individual notes that actually sound wrong, fix them, then move on. If I really need to "quantize" audio, I cut at transients, move as needed, then use DSP to cover over gaps if needed. Even then, I won't stretch the whole note, just the last or first part, and just enough to cover the gap. This is more time-consuming than blanket quantizing, but if you don't need to make too many fixes, the quality is higher and the music ends up having a better feel.
For me, beat and pitch correction are the "court of last resort." I'd rather punch or re-record to retain a cohesive performance. I'm not trying to take a holier-than-thou approach and I'm not a Luddite about new tools, it's just my experience that the less you mess with a performance, the better the odds of it telling a story.
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Lord Tim
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 01:12:20
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While I do agree with that sentiment, that's fine until you want to lock in a live drum kit with loops and samples without any kind of flamming, though. Sync'ing a sampled kick up to a live bass drum, for instance, without it being locked in perfectly sounds terrible.
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Dyonight
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 08:55:42
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Ok Mr Dubdisciple and mr Anderton, I have to admit I went too far with the quote from the Reaper intro, that won't help anyone.
I didn't knew about the the Reaper's history so thank you and I understand why this is so cheap and I thank the owner for sharing his means instead of selling it insane prices (I'm pretty sure Avid is not a poor company money wise).
And yes it is 100% true that Cakewalk do fix a ton of bugs each release, so forgive my attitude.
Finally my comments are the result of my own experience and frustration with AS. I'm using it since Sonar 8.0 and I've always had problems with it. You'll agree that it's been a couple of years already and transient detection haven't improved a bit, I've worked with its state for too long and recently I just exploded. I'm pretty persistent but this time I couldn't take more.
When I saw the first post video on youtube showing Reaper's way, I understood that it is the way AS should behave, hence the title of the thread.
Please forget the other negative comments I made and let's ask Cake to put AS at the level it is meant to be.
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cclarry
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 09:08:35
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dubdisciple
Sanderxpander
I actually keep hearing really good things about Reaper's basic fx like ReaComp and ReaEQ.
They are not bad at all...just like the basic fx on most DAWs are pretty good. I think Mixcraft includes the Khaerhaus(sp) classic plugins which are pretty good too. I think it's safe to say that most of us will go beyond the basics and that is non-existent for Reaper. I doubt there is anyone on this forum that only uses one compressor.
This is true...the fx with Reaper are very usable. But they are "Basic". They don't "add in" third party things to inflate their price. This is the beauty of the program. They're not trying to "entice" you with things that aren't even theirs in the first place. It's a solid program, packed with features, for pennies on the dollar compared to others, BECAUSE they know that we "go beyond" the basics... and will use the things we buy afterward on our own, or have already purchased anyways. For the money....Reaper is a great program, and I think they have the right idea.
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stxx
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 12:21:47
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/02/13 18:24:04
I don't know... I use audiosnap all the time and once I understood it, it works damn good for me....
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Anderton
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 12:29:16
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cclarry
For the money....Reaper is a great program, and I think they have the right idea.
Agreed that having $59 million in the bank to start a company is the right idea, but it's not always possible.
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Anderton
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 12:31:39
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Lord Tim
While I do agree with that sentiment, that's fine until you want to lock in a live drum kit with loops and samples without any kind of flamming, though. Sync'ing a sampled kick up to a live bass drum, for instance, without it being locked in perfectly sounds terrible.
Agreed, I ran into that exact same situation when doing a remix and did mass quantization. But in most cases, I don't want a kick in the loop if I have another kick happening anyway. I did find R-Mix useful for excising kicks from loops.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 16:43:20
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Dyonight. I don't think your frustrations with AS are unreasonable. We were just pointing out some of the mitigating factors in comparing Reaper to Cakewalk or other DAWs. I do think Reaper is a cool concept, but much of the value is similar to buying s stripped down version of a car. i once intentionally bought a new car with no saudio system, figuring that for the cost of factory system I could get a decent third party solutuion that was superior. The same is arguably true when it comes to DAW's but i suspect that value balances out for the person who is fine using mostly stock plugs.
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mettelus
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Re: Audiosnap.... Cakewalk you better LEARN from Reaper....
2014/02/13 18:34:28
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emwhy
Just went back to page 1 of this thread and watched the video posted by rockenobi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH9W1MD80kk
The Cake guys get into AS about a third of the way into it. I followed there steps and methods on some drum tracks done last year and it did give me the desired results doing things somewhat manually. The drums were done in a big room with some distance mics so there was a slight delay in the wave files when comparing snare hits. To use a regular quantize option on this would have moved the room mics in to much and caused phase issues. Give the above link a try and you'll see what I mean.
It has been a while since I have seen this; for those interested, the AS part starts just before 24 minutes into the video.
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