Attention: Pianists using X3

I'm using X3e and I've noticed sustain pedal errors in X3e compared to none in 8.53, when recording piano. I created a CWP file in X3 and played it and at times it sounded like the sustain pedal was held down running the notes together. When the same file is played in 8.5 it sounds fine the sustain pedal works correctly. I've tried it in 32 bit X3 and 64 bit X3 with the same results.

I recorded the audio using X3 and then recorded audio using 8.5 so you can hear the difference. I also submitted a bug report with a BUN file. In this example you can look at the sus pedal in piano roll view. The sus pedal is running everything together as if it was held down the whole time. You can erase all sus pedal events except first one and it sounds the same. It's seems like the first sus pedal event is overriding all the other ones.

This doesn't happen all the time, I use the sustain pedal, but when it happens and it's recorded then it does happen every time it's played back. I'm not sure why it happens. It's very strange. I can play back the same piano track triggering my external synths and the sustain pedal works fine. The problem only occurs using softsynths inside of X3.


Here's the small 4 bar bun file or the 2 mp3s, if you prefer not to use the bun file.
https://onedrive.live.com...d=C256E2DAE26B22A5!105

Has anyone else noticed this? I've upgraded recently form 8.53 to X3e.

soens
You can't upload it here but you can host it on another sight like MS SkyDrive and post a link to it.
 
I recommend uploading just the track (clip) in question so we can see the controller data.
 
Also let us know which soft synths you're using it with.
 
Steve

Thanks for the suggestion, Steve. I went ahead and uploaded the bun file and edited my post with the link

Nothing to do with this?
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Want-This-Fixed-1-Last-controller-event-in-the-clip-disappers-when-the-clip-is-moved-m3030630.aspx
 

brundlefly
The MIDI plays normally with pedal up rendered properly here though I had to load a new instance of TTS-1 as something caused my X3e installation to report TTS-1 missing for the existing instance. Also, I slip-edited the clip to full length as it was set to end after a pedal down as received which made it sound like the pedal was stuck at the end.
 
In any case, I've already recorded plenty of piano with sustain in X3 to know there are no issues with it in general.
 
The first thing I would suggest is to try increasing your MIDI Prepare Using buffer to 500ms if it's at the default of 250. Preferences > MIDI > Playback and Recording.
 
 
 
 

Thanks for looking into this. Just so we're perfectly clear, did you listen to the audio, one recorded in X3 and one in 8.5? Did you then play the midi track and see if the sus pedal moved in the up position like in the 8.5 example? After playing the midi example, which audio example did it sound most like?
 
I've tried increasing the MIDI Prepare Using buffer to 500ms from the default of 250 and I also tried moving the other buffer from 64 to 128 and then played the midi example. It sounded the same.
 
You're right the clip was a much longer clip and it was exhibiting the problem with the long clip and I shortened it to make a shorter example, so the slip editing fix isn't the problem.
 
It doesn't exhibit this problem every time. I haven't been able to figure out exactly what kind of playing causes this. I tried playing a chromatic scale using the pedal for each note, playing at different tempos, moving the pedal a little differently sometimes and it all played back perfectly.
 
I tried playing both hands playing busier chromatic chord patterns and it played back fine.  It seems like more complex playing  with the sus pedal moving at more unpredictable times triggers it. I've only been using X3 for about 3 weeks and just noticed a lot more sus pedal errors. Many times I fixed them by punching back in. Other times I moved the sus pedal events.

Hi Gerry. Yes, as mentioned, I listened to both examples and I can hear the problem with the track labeled X3, but I don't get that when playing back or rendering the TTS-1 output. My X3 rendering sounds like the example in your 8.5 track.
 
I'm not sure what the issue is, but I think some preference in X3 must be set differently than in 8.5. that or there;s some issue with x86 SONAR that I'm not going to be able to reproduce because I'm running x64. Can you confirm you're running x86 SONAR? You're signature doesn't say.
 
And am I understanding correctly that this can happen with Ivory and other soft synths as well as TTS-1? Can you reproduce it in a project started from the X3 Normal template with no FX?  I noticed you have the old FX Chorus (32-bit only, I believe) and a Waves plugin and an "S1 Imager"  plugin in this project that I don't have. You'll want to make sure a plugin isn't causing ptoblems

brundlefly
Hi Gerry. Yes, as mentioned, I listened to both examples and I can hear the problem with the track labeled X3, but I don't get that when playing back or rendering the TTS-1 output. My X3 rendering sounds like the example in your 8.5 track.
 
I'm not sure what the issue is, but I think some preference in X3 must be set differently than in 8.5. that or there;s some issue with x86 SONAR that I'm not going to be able to reproduce because I'm running x64. Can you confirm you're running x86 SONAR? You're signature doesn't say.
 
And am I understanding correctly that this can happen with Ivory and other soft synths as well as TTS-1? Can you reproduce it in a project started from the X3 Normal template with no FX?  I noticed you have the old FX Chorus (32-bit only, I believe) and a Waves plugin and an "S1 Imager"  plugin in this project that I don't have. You'll want to make sure a plugin isn't causing ptoblems

Thanks for making this perfectly clear. I see now it's more of a system problem than a true bug.


 
I fixed my signature, yes I'm running 32 bit and would like to get it working first. I have 64 bit X3 installed and will go to it later
 
Yes this can happen with Ivory and other soft synths as well as TTS-1? But all external outboard synths work fine - no sus pedal sticking.
 
Good idea, I'll open a  project started from the X3 Normal template with no FX or other pluggins and import the midi track from a .MID file. IF this works, it will be a great starting place for finding the problem.
 
 

I opened X3e and opened the default normal.cwt template. I opened the .MID file of the or the problem piano track. I opened a TTS-1 piano, copied the midi track to the piano track and it played the same way with the sus pedal being stuck in the sustaining position.
 
Actually I think opening the .MID file bypassed the template and simply opens a new project with only the midi file, but there are no pluggins for sure, so I don't know if it makes a difference. I know some other ways of getting the midi into a template, I'll try that later

 
The fact that it only happens with soft synths suggests it's a buffering issue, which is why I thought the Prepare Using buffer increase would fix it. Just to be sure that's not it, you should try values up to 1000.
 
And you should try your x64 installation just as a test to see if it exhibits the same problem. It's quite possible this is only an issue with the x86 version.
 
Other than that, and possibly re-installing, I'm not sure what else to suggest. 
 
Randy Bowser, another very experienced 8.5 user who recently upgraded, is also experiencing some unusual and inexplicable  issues with TTS-1 in X3e, so you're not completely alone:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...t-solved-m3024619.aspx

I have had a similar issue IF i record from my Kawai CA63 piano via midi into sonar and then swap it for a piano sound in Kontakt, the sustain is a mess. If i record just using a soft synth then i dont have a problem. Could be the Kawai i guess..
 
Bibs 

brundlefly
No, I can totally hear the issue you're describing and the difference between the two bounces you provided, and I assure you mine is rendering correctly. Your troubleshooting approach seems sound so I really don't get why it's not working for you. I would suspect some unusual interoperability issue between X3 and your operating system, but my environment is actually quite similar to yours except for my no longer having 32-bit SONAR installed which I did right up until X3. I'm pretty baffled myself. 
 
One other thought: Did you install X3 as Administrator, and if so, are you running it as Administrator? I disabled UAC long ago, and do not install or run as administrator.
 
You might have to take this issue to Cakewalk Tech Support, and see if they have any ideas.

I installed X3 as Administrator. I forgot to run as administrator the first time I launched X3a today. I guess I could try that. I wonder if this administrator thing could cause a problem. THis is a one person computer, so I'm actually the only user and administrator. I'm used to having total control over my computer at all times, like with XP and Win98. Since I'm already the administrator, I wonder if that's causing a conflict.
 
I did a bug report on this and today they said I should contact tech support.
 
I think I may try a very early image of Win7, do the updates, install my sound card and X3a
 
Still baffled..

Since I don't have X3 yet all I can say is it seems to be correct in X2. Also, both mp3s sound the same to me.
 
When playing the MIDI track I do hear some sustained notes where there's a STOP controller. But after reviewing the notes in PRV I see they are extending beyond the STOP controller which is causing this.
 
For some reason a sustain of 127 will hold a short note beyond the end of that note. BUT, a sustain of -0- near the middle of a long note will NOT stop the note at that point. It completely ignores it. Is this intended behavior?

dcumpian
I just had this happen to me yesterday with X3e and Ivory. Turned out that the pedal up was too close to the end of the notes. When I shortened the notes a bit in PRV, the problem went away. I didn't ever have this happen in X1d, so something has changed.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Dan, there's no reason to download the bun. Here's a better method. would you please download my CWP file at
https://onedrive.live.com...d=C256E2DAE26B22A5!105
it's called SUSTAIN PEDAL cwp.CWP
 
Since I use Ivory also, you can use Ivory or any piano. Try this. Copy the midi events to your Ivory midi track. Go to the example file and open the piano roll view and play the sample, then erase all the sus pedal events except the first one and see if you hear the difference. Undo and redo a couple of times and let me if you have the same problem.
 What I'm hearing is X3 ignoring all the other sus pedal events.
 
Brundlefly is not having this occur in X3e. I have X1 and it's not exhibiting this problem in X1 either. If you check my recent post I did a more major reinstall this time stopping at X3a to see if the problem was there and it was. This is a strange problem and I think it would be good for you to see if you indeed are having the same problem with the CWP file. It's even possible having Ivory Installed has something to do with it, since we both have that.

gmp

dcumpian
I just had this happen to me yesterday with X3e and Ivory. Turned out that the pedal up was too close to the end of the notes. When I shortened the notes a bit in PRV, the problem went away. I didn't ever have this happen in X1d, so something has changed.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Dan, there's no reason to download the bun. Here's a better method. would you please download my CWP file at
https://onedrive.live.com...d=C256E2DAE26B22A5!105
it's called SUSTAIN PEDAL cwp.CWP
 
Since I use Ivory also, you can use Ivory or any piano. Try this. Copy the midi events to your Ivory midi track. Go to the example file and open the piano roll view and play the sample, then erase all the sus pedal events except the first one and see if you hear the difference. Undo and redo a couple of times and let me if you have the same problem.
What I'm hearing is X3 ignoring all the other sus pedal events.
 
Brundlefly is not having this occur in X3e. I have X1 and it's not exhibiting this problem in X1 either. If you check my recent post I did a more major reinstall this time stopping at X3a to see if the problem was there and it was. This is a strange problem and I think it would be good for you to see if you indeed are having the same problem with the CWP file. It's even possible having Ivory Installed has something to do with it, since we both have that.

I'll check it out this evening...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Loaded the Midi data into a new CWP with Ivory. Ivory did not respond to any of the pedal up events. In the PRV, the pedal up (CC64 = 0) is clearly after notes that should have already ended, but are still playing.
 
To hear it more clearly, I then moved two of the bass notes to another note (clashing) and raised the velocity. Still happened. Then I shortened one of those notes and it did respond to the pedal up, even though the note length displayed in the PRV was already not long enough to still play after the pedal up. Either there is some problem with Ivory and X3e, or the PRV is not accurately displaying note lengths, or pedal up positions properly. It's pretty crazy because after changing the notes, just a tiny bit, they did respond correctly.
 
I didn't have time to play around with the data beyond that...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

soens

gmp
Try this method instead of comparing the mp3's and I think you'll definitely hear the subtle difference. Go to the example file and open the piano roll view and play the sample, then erase all the sus pedal events except the first one and see if you hear the difference. Undo and redo a couple of times and let me know if you hear the difference.
 
If you don't hear the difference then you're having the same sustain pedal problem I'm having. What I'm hearing is X3 ignoring all the other sus pedal events. You can try the same test in 8.5 or X1 and in my case those programs are fine.

Using TTS-1, DimPro, and True Pianos, it works as advertised in X2. And I do hear a slight difference in the 2 wave clips.
 
Apparently X3 is doing something different. Does it act this way if you create the notes and controllers by hand, or only when recording from your synth?

Just to be clear, are you saying that it does work fine in X2? When you erased the sus pedal events after the first one you could hear it sounding differently, like the sus pedal was held down? And before you erased the sus pedal events it sounded cleaner with the sus pedal going into the up position?


 
I haven't tried recreating the problem by hand, because first of all it doesn't happen constantly. But when it does happen and is recorded that way, it plays back that way every time. I've played piano tracks that I know where played right and then upon playing back I heard spots where it ignored the sus pedal in the up position. At first I thought it was an anomaly, but when I started noticing it more, I realized it was a bug.
 
THis problem only occurs with softsynths, if I play the midi track triggering my external synths they work just fine and don't ignore sus pedal up events.
 
Thanks for looking into this,