Guitarpima
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/09 15:51:09
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I always record one side with my Ibanez and the other with my Les Paul Custom. Of course, you have to be pretty good at timing.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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hockeyjx
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/09 16:15:31
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Brian, I think if you did a blind study with sims vs miked guitar in a mix, the 95% or more of people would NOT be able to tell which was which. My buddy who runs a studio tests me on this to me all the time, and done correctly, it is DAMN hard to tell. If you isolate them, it is a little easier, but not a slam dunk to be able to discern one from another IMO. I have a nice rig, but actually prefer the amp sims when I play because of the versatility they provide. Especially after you capture the performance. I don't want to re-amp or run a split. So the bottom line is: Get the sound that inspires a great take.
post edited by hockeyjx - 2014/07/09 16:27:37
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lawajava
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/09 22:34:24
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Sanderxpander That Slipperman article made my day, thanks.
Also made my day! It's crazy goodness.
Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
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brconflict
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/10 10:40:11
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hockeyjx Brian, I think if you did a blind study with sims vs miked guitar in a mix, the 95% or more of people would NOT be able to tell which was which. My buddy who runs a studio tests me on this to me all the time, and done correctly, it is DAMN hard to tell. If you isolate them, it is a little easier, but not a slam dunk to be able to discern one from another IMO. I have a nice rig, but actually prefer the amp sims when I play because of the versatility they provide. Especially after you capture the performance. I don't want to re-amp or run a split. So the bottom line is: Get the sound that inspires a great take.
I won't say I've sat in a studio performing blind tests for Amp vs. Sims, but I can point out a very common situation where the amp will usually win for me. I recently recorded a band that has a guitarist using a 1978 Le Paul Deluxe (mini-humbuckers) played through an original Peavey 5150 head (6L6 tubes) and half-stack cab with Sheffield drivers mic'd with an Avantone cv12. The guitarist has been using this basic setup for about 7 years. In that time he's quite honed his tone, to say the least. He knows exactly how to get what tones and power he wants from this particular rig. The last time I tracked him, about a year ago, we fed his signal into an Audient ASP008 Mic Pre direct from his guitar using a transparent mixer. One output of the mixer forwarded his signal to the amp, while feeding a perfect copy of that signal to the Audient. One signal was clean, while the other was fed into the amp and mic'd. We just wanted to really see what his signal would do through a few different amp sims and even some sim stomp boxes. Waves GTR, IK's Amplitube, and NI's Guitar Rig were all included in the lineup. What time we spent was busy indeed, in finding sounds/tones he really liked, but the main thing we simply could not find was the intense "bite" his rig had. There simply was not an easy way to fully duplicate his rig. This isn't to say sims aren't useful, and they are improving all the time. However, I'm still convinced it's easier to use the real thing if you know that works and you know how to capture it vs. trying to emulate a guitarist's tone through sims that weren't modeled from his specific setup. If you have no amp at all, perhaps the sims are deadly! We just preferred the real thing. Sidenote: I was at a gig recently where I could hear one of Line6's prestigious half-stack modeling amps. I believe he was using a Marshall sound, but I couldn't tell for sure. The other guitarist was playing through an Orange British half-stack. During the set, and I'll admit I'm a trained ear to the situation, but I noticed the Orange amp's presence and resonance superiority. The issue I had with the Line 6 was that, although it sounded much like a Marshall stack, it sounded as if someone recorded a Marshall stack and simply played the audio back through this Line6.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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hockeyjx
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/10 15:38:53
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If you heard his tone out "in the world" first, there may be a bias there. Just as if you know someone has a Line6 vs an Orange in person, you might be prejudicial if the tone is close. A bit of a placebo effect if you will. But to my point: it still is hard to reduce distortion efficiently (without re-amping trial and error) when mixing, and that is where the sims are pretty awesome. We laid down tracks live at a real, and I didn't like them in the mix, so I redid them with GR5 and loved them. There is no wrong or right, just what you prefer or what works for you.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/10 17:16:11
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I play guitar really badly but I've gotten a few people with good ears to ask how I recorded a part, using S-Gear 2. Not to say that I could copy someone's "real" tone, but it sounds pretty good in and of itself. In a situation where the track is just presented "as is", I believe you can get great results out of a sim.
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brconflict
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/11 11:55:29
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Some good conversation. So, let me qualify something real quick. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using Sims in my ears. I'm mainly advocating that if you can do the tried and true amp, that's my purist vote. I personally prefer the real thing, however, in many cases, I'm no analog snob. My mixing and Mastering is all in the box. I just feel if you're copying or re-amping, the real amp can likely be easier to get exactly what you're looking for, IF that's where the sound is right. One could tweak to heaven and back on a sim to get the sound the amp naturally has. Hockeyjx has a solid argument about reducing distortion on an otherwise clean guitar. Sims are amazing there. Believe me, on another session I have, the amp used was awful and I'd love to get rid of the Boss pedal distortion, in favor of a real tube head. The thing that tube head rigs can provide that emulations can't (faithfully, IMO) is what you get when you drive the bias of a tube in different ways, such as using the Resonance setting on a Peavey amp. It creates this "loosened" effect that can be felt in the room, which simply fills the air with a solid layer of guitar. An Ampeg SVT bass amp pumping an 8x10" cab is another example that a sim simply cannot provide (at least none that I've tried). They come close, but again, there's a certain looseness or punch-iness and such you can get from a rig that inherently just fills the track. The argument I have against sims is one that I believe has been valiantly fought for years--with some success. Once the signal is in the box, the signal isn't as reactive as an actual coil pickup underneath the strings. In the box, you've passed through at least a few OP-AMPs which will collectively smear the signal and then, depending on your A/D converters may not retain the full thrust of a mad guitarist ready to break strings. Even if the sim were exactly the same as the real amp/cab, the input signal has changed slightly, and I can even see that on my scope. In either case, I use sims, too, when that's the only real option, or when the amp just isn't doing it for us. However, standing the sim up against what I can mic from the amp, the amp emotionally works better for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see better and better sims coming. I don't have any problems with post-processing a guitar if it works. I just think that doing so now is harder to me than getting the real thing in the room and tracking it there. And I do have a sort of contempt for modeling amps, not because of brand or accuracy. It highly depends on the room. In a studio, both amps may sound exactly the same. A lot of effort has gone into these ideas. However, this isn't a typical result in a live room on a stage, and most live shows don't happen in an acoustically controlled room. I still believe the engineers at companies that make amps which emulate other, more expensive tube amps are clever and ingenious, but I also believe there's a sense of arrogance that these amps are better than the real ones.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/11 13:12:14
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I understand a certain level of purism. Piano is my trade, and I will (probably) always maintain that a real grand sounds better and fills the room in a nicer way than a digital emulation or sample set can. If I had a convenient way to record a real grand I would always pick it over a plugin. Still, I'm sure I've heard many tracks with VSTi pianos that I considered to be real.
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Sidroe
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/11 13:41:10
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I am having some really good results with the Torpedo-Wall Of Sound plugin. It was mentioned on this forum a few days ago and I tried it and liked it very much. I am using a Fender Concert-Rivera model with the line recording connected to the interface. Then in X3, I have the wall of sound plugin doing the cab sim. I have Amplitube, GR, Pod Farm Free, and TH2. I use them constantly but being able to use my tube amp without the micing hassles and also being able to change cabs is priceless. If you get a chance, check it out. The plugin is free. You can check it out with all the cab sims in their library for free. You don't like it, dump it. If you like it,they only ask you to buy two or more of their cabs. I bought 5 cabs for about $60. Bringing my tube amps in to the interface and using cab sims has brought a really nice choice of tones in to play.
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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TremoJem
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 14:36:03
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This is very good information.
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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Guitarpima
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 15:49:46
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I never got "amp sims". I can never get a good sound out of them. They always sound so fake and brittle. Bass isn't so bad but there still, I would prefer an amped bass.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 15:50:23
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The main amp sim benefit for me is that they offer the flexibility to create "idealized" amp sounds, and amps that would be difficult to create in the real world. In other words, they do the most accurate simulations of things that don't exist otherwise.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 16:28:21
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Guitarpima I never got "amp sims". I can never get a good sound out of them. They always sound so fake and brittle. Bass isn't so bad but there still, I would prefer an amped bass.
Have you tried S-Gear 2? Bass I usually like just DI'd.
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 19:57:32
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Guitarpima I never got "amp sims". I can never get a good sound out of them. They always sound so fake and brittle.
I more or less agree, but there are a lot of ways to optimize the sound. I've written a bunch of articles on the topic; most of them involve using pre-EQ, post-EQ, and creating a "room" in which the sim can exist. It's not easy to wrestle them to the ground and get a good sound, but it's possible. FWIW every piece of music on my YouTube channel uses amp sims.
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Guitarpima
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 20:34:36
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I have your book on my nook Craig. I just can't get good tones or, I'm just not patient enough which I doubt. I take the time to edit de'essing rather than use a plug in. Maybe I just need to spend more time with it but I've spent a lot already. Although, I will say clean tones are doable. The Fender bundle from A3 is nice.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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stevec
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 21:02:01
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As someone without the facility to record a real amp, nor do I have one worth recording, amp sims are a must. But what I've found more than anything is the feel of playing an amp sim vs. the resulting sound (after tweaking as Craig mentioned). I keep testing different ways of getting acceptable sustain while tracking because that's what I find lacking the most. There have been threads about this aspect to though, one of which included some good info from Danny which I should probably track down again since I forget what was written... The closest equivalent I can think of is in live use... I played through a Roland Cube amp for a few years, and then a POD 2.0 into a Roland keyboard amp for a few more, and while the tone in isolation wasn't bad in both cases, in context it just never felt right. Since using a Vox Tonelab instead (with a power tube) I noticed a big difference. There's not quite as much variety as with the POD, but the feel is much better, even while the rest of the band is playing. Huh, now why have I never tried using that as a front end????
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/14 21:28:53
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Guitarpima I have your book on my nook Craig. I just can't get good tones or, I'm just not patient enough which I doubt. I take the time to edit de'essing rather than use a plug in. Maybe I just need to spend more time with it but I've spent a lot already.
You're right, it takes a lot of time. It's almost like knowing how to set up mics on a session, each amp sim is different. Fortunately for me it's a gig to figure these things out, which I've been working on for over ten years. I don't want to sound discouraging, but I feel it's only in the past year that I've actually cracked the code about how to make amp sims sound really good. If there was a magic formula, I'd share it but it's more like I now have a bag of 100 tricks, and I've pretty much figured out which ones I need to use for any particular situation. Sort of. Mostly So when people say they have a problem with amp sims, my first reaction is pretty much that I'd be surprised if they didn't. A guitar through a physical amp has a certain quality that doesn't exist (yet) in the virtual world, so I think part of the problem is companies trying to emulate that instead of forging new directions that are unique to virtual amps. Maybe someday...
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soens
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/15 02:10:09
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joakes My recipe is this :
Record one good track.
Clone it 3 times, so you get a total of 4 tracks.
Pan 2 of them hard left then nudge one of those tracks by a couple of milliseconds.
Do the same fot the other 2 tracks, only panning them hard right this time.
Add reverb (to taste) to one track to one of the left tracks and to one of the right tracks.
My two euro cents !
Cheers, Jerry
This works great on vocals too...
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Sidroe
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/16 07:12:20
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I bought a Line 6 HD500 back last summer. I also have a POD 2.0 as mentioned in an earlier post. The HD500 is leaps and bounds ahead of the 2.0 as far as the feel and response of the guitar in your hand. I liked the 2.0 so much it was a mainstay in both studio and live work. The HD500 has taken it's place. There is a steeper learning curve to the inner workings of the HD500 due to all of the editing ability but it feels VERY close to the real deal.
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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smallstonefan
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Re: Tracking Guitars for HUGE sound
2014/07/16 10:02:30
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My wife and I have been discussing this very topic, as lately I have gotten really excited about recording with Amplitube. Mind you, I have a studio (double-wall construction, double drywall of different thicknesses on channel, acoustically treated, etc.) and I have been collecting really high quality gear over the years. I also have my amps mic'd up at all times. Add that to the fact I've been known to be a tone snob and well, you can see her consternation. She thinks I am going back on my principles, and in some way I don't yet understand that I am "cheating". Look, running my ES335 through a Skreddy pedal into a real Echoplex then through a first edition Small Stone phaser (hence my forum name) and then split using a TC Electronics Stereo Chorus pedal into a 1964 Super Reverb and a modern Dr. Z Amp gives my a sound that I cannot exactly duplicate in the software. However, just try to come back a week later and recreate some crazy sound - especially with a few analog modulation devices in there. While Amplitube is not 100%, it seems that if you tweak it a bit and mix it well with the rest of a project, you're hard pressed to hear the difference. You can tell, but you have to go looking for it, if you know what I mean. I love that I can record a part, and then go back and try different amps, and more importantly, different effects. Being able to play with multiple delay units on a looped guitar part to find just that right sound, and have perfect recollection of it later - very cool. Maybe I'm fooling myself and I'll jump back over to the amps with even more snobbery - who knows? :) Something I found that helped when using Amplitube. I run into a Valvulator running a 12AT7 tube in it so I can push through lots of effects without signal loss (tone snob, remember?). The Valvulator has two outs, and I've found if I plug the guitar into the Valvulator and the Valvulator into the input on my interface, I get a better tone and response than plugging directly into the interface. As with pedals, I think the Valvulator keeps a nice consistent load on the pickups of the guitar, and pushes out a good consistent signal...
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