drewfx1
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:15:01
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For the reality-challenged: 1. The "vocal minority" didn't get bent out of shape. AFAIK one person in the "forum changes" thread expressed an opinion that deals were drowning out other discussions and CW/Willy replied as follows:
This is a good point - going forward I'm not sure that we'll actually allow these types of posts on our forum. Let's face it, KVR is a much better source of information for this type of info and we've already seen a few incidents with representatives of another company getting into arguments with users on our forum. The DAW and hardware sections are useful complements to our products. The software forum is starting to smell a lot more like a spam bin/advertising bulletin board.
There is a lot of good discussion around software that is valid and helpful to users. Would it make sense to limit the scope of conversation to discussion about compatibility/tools/features of a software product and not allow advertisements or promotions?
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Announcement-Community-Updates-m3083225.aspx#3083433 I suggested that since deals were valuable, they be split to a separate sub-forum rather than being eliminated. Several people agreed with me, some expressed keeping it as it was. But, interestingly, many of the "silent majority" here chose to remain silent rather than cross-pollinate that thread which was expressly there for the purpose of receiving input about changes from the community and was a sticky at the top of every sub-forum for weeks. 2. Go look at Deals. Two thirds of the posts have ZERO replies, and aside from a thread about "Deals Are Now Here?", only two threads have more than two replies. So much for all the cross-pollination.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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smallstonefan
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:37:05
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I have to say I disliked the idea of splitting it from the moment I found out about it. I stayed quiet to give a chance and see what I think. I feel it's fractured the community a bit, and I don't looking in two places.
I'm a big fan of Cakewalk and forward progress, but I think this should have been trolled out to the group here for thoughts before it was done. I would like to see it go back to the old way.
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:44:41
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I think we're being pretty lenient allowing people to post what is ultimately spam... although helpful spam :)
We could have just said "none of that", but we didn't.
Having it as a separate forum allows people to:
1) Post deals related to software, hardware, or any DAW components in a single place
2) Not flood the other areas where people might be actually trying to get help/advice/etc.
3) Prevent this type of info from showing up in other areas (such as the Active & Recent Posts filter, Searches etc.)
The Cakewalk forum is a free community that we provide to everyone, but the focus is for people to help one another with music software. It's not supposed to be a billboard. It felt like a billboard. I personally wanted it all to go away but when we allowed people to discuss this at length we got a lot of feedback that let us know it was valued by many.
By putting it in it's own place it allows us to keep the forum from becoming spam central due to custom behavior implemented on that exact sub forum. I think it's a pretty reasonable middle ground for everyone.
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Grem
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:45:15
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smallstonefan
I have to say I disliked the idea of splitting it from the moment I found out about it. I stayed quiet to give a chance and see what I think. I feel it's fractured the community a bit, and I don't looking in two places.
I'm a big fan of Cakewalk and forward progress, but I think this should have been trolled out to the group here for thoughts before it was done. I would like to see it go back to the old way.
I'm with ya SSF, but it was discussed. I didn't see the thread that's linked above till way late. And I read the whole thing. A lot I didn't agree with. And voiced it. If you have something to say, speak up. We can all benefit from your input.
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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Grem
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:47:43
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
By putting it in it's own place it allows us to keep the forum from becoming spam central due to custom behavior implemented on that exact sub forum. I think it's a pretty reasonable middle ground for everyone.
This is the best explanation I have seen about it so far. I can accept that. Let's move on.
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:49:25
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☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2014/10/01 11:54:42
Hi Drew,
Re: 1) As a direct reply, I can only speak for myself: I didn't think any changes were necessary, and I certainly don't think limiting the scope of conversation is an effective way to promote conversation.
I chose to be silent about it... I thought the discussion was silly and destined to produce an arbitrary result. That is why I wasn't un-silent.
While I can not speak for others I feel a liberty to have a personal opinion that many other people made similar choices.
Re: 2) The logic escapes me. When discussions about software stimulated user involvement those discussions floated to the top. The discussions that do not stimulate user involvement drop off the page.
edit spelling
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 11:55:39
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
I think we're being pretty lenient allowing people to post what is ultimately spam... although helpful spam :)
We could have just said "none of that", but we didn't.
Having it as a separate forum allows people to:
1) Post deals related to software, hardware, or any DAW components in a single place
2) Not flood the other areas where people might be actually trying to get help/advice/etc.
3) Prevent this type of info from showing up in other areas (such as the Active & Recent Posts filter, Searches etc.)
The Cakewalk forum is a free community that we provide to everyone, but the focus is for people to help one another with music software. It's not supposed to be a billboard. It felt like a billboard. I personally wanted it all to go away but when we allowed people to discuss this at length we got a lot of feedback that let us know it was valued by many.
By putting it in it's own place it allows us to keep the forum from becoming spam central due to custom behavior implemented on that exact sub forum. I think it's a pretty reasonable middle ground for everyone.
Hi Ryan, This begs a question. Why didn't you just send the people who were posting what you regard as spam a PM and represent the T.O.S. etc. so that we could continue to have a rich discourse up to, but within the boundaries of Cakewalk's policies. It seems so simple. It seems ironic to me that the new "Deals" section invites even more of what someone presumably regards as spam in the form of postings about hardware, studio supplies, etc. Good times.
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Mesh
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 12:01:23
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Just a thought here........would making the "Deals" forum a sticky within the Software forum workout better?
A software thread could be easily made if/when a discussion arose from any particular deal that popped up AND all of it would be in one forum.
(Personally, I have no problems adjusting to either way of doing things, but thought it's nice to have them both in the same location since they're so closely related).
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drewfx1
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 12:13:27
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mike_mccue
Hi Drew,
Re: 1) As a direct reply, I can only speak for myself: I didn't think any changes were necessary, and I certainly don't think limiting the scope of conversation is an effective way to promote conversation.
I chose to be silent about it... I thought the discussion was silly and destined to produce an arbitrary result. That is why I wasn't un-silent.
But then why be not be silent now? Your opinion was expressly asked for and could at least possibly have made a difference then, so I don't get the logic behind complaining out loud only after the fact.
While I can not speak for others I feel a liberty to have a personal opinion that many other people made similar choices.
I don't pretend to know what people unwilling to express their opinion when asked might think, but you could be right. Personally I'd guess that the majority of people don't care too much one way or the other.
Re: 2) The logic escapes me. When discussions about software stimulated user involvement those discussions floated to the top.
Deal threads have an extraordinarily high number of zero replies (or perhaps just something along the lines of, "Thanks, Larry!"). Any real discussion is the exception not the rule, so those threads aren't like other SW threads.
The discussions that do not stimulate user involvement drop off the page.
As they will continue to do now. I respect the argument that some would prefer not to have an additional forum to check, but aside from that the reality is that the overwhelming majority of deal threads just aren't SW discussion threads.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 12:14:56
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mike_mccue
Hi Ryan,
This begs a question. Why didn't you just send the people who were posting what you regard as spam a PM and represent the T.O.S. etc. so that we could continue to have a rich discourse up to, but within the boundaries of Cakewalk's policies.
It seems so simple.
It seems ironic to me that the new "Deals" section invites even more of what someone presumably regards as spam in the form of postings about hardware, studio supplies, etc.
Good times.
I think our stance is pretty clear and there's no reason to discuss it at length. We're creating a special case and place for people to share deals specifically about music products because, while it may be spam, some might find it helpful to know they can get a great deal on something they can use with their Cakewalk products. I personally put custom behavior on the Deals forum to prevent it from showing up in the various filters. This is where things will go or they won't go anywhere at all. People seem to think it's making it more difficult, bit it's actually simplifying things. It gives people a place to share good deals without having to worry about being banned as spammers and it lets us cut it out of the message we're trying to provide to customers. If people are concerned about having to click on two forums I think they should reconsider how lenient we're being allowing what is essentially advertisements. I'm sorry but being upset about having to go to two places, as if it divides the community, seems a bit silly to me. This whole forum is a single community.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 12:32:13
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drewfx1
why be not be silent now?
It's almost exactly like when I ride my bicycle into a mess of cactus. I can see it coming... I can keep my mouth shut while it's happening... but after I have a prickly pear sticking in my shin I may say "ouch". I think Ryan explained it best. There is a new official policy and it will be enforced. I can get behind that idea... ...but it will be hard not to compare the "now" to a "then" when clearly stated policies seemed largely ignored.
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drewfx1
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 12:41:51
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mike_mccue
drewfx1
why be not be silent now?
It's almost exactly like when I ride my bicycle into a mess of cactus.
I can see it coming... I can keep my mouth shut while it's happening... but after I have a prickly pear sticking in my shin I may say "ouch".
 I can only say that I expressed my opinion when asked, and the result corresponded not with CW's own original suggestion, but with the suggestion I made. Perhaps that's something for people to consider when deciding whether to remain silent in the future.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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backwoods
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 13:09:27
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☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2014/10/02 09:50:54
C'mon mike , let us have the video of you crashing into the cactus ( or is it cacti?) :)
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backwoods
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 13:10:30
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drewfx1
mike_mccue
drewfx1
why be not be silent now?
It's almost exactly like when I ride my bicycle into a mess of cactus.
I can see it coming... I can keep my mouth shut while it's happening... but after I have a prickly pear sticking in my shin I may say "ouch".
I can only say that I expressed my opinion when asked, and the result corresponded not with CW's own original suggestion, but with the suggestion I made.
Perhaps that's something for people to consider when deciding whether to remain silent in the future.
Is this a polite way of saying STFU
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drewfx1
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 13:36:47
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backwoods
Is this a polite way of saying STFU
No. It's a way of saying that personally I think it makes far more sense to express one's opinion when asked beforehand than it does to only speak up to complain after the fact.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Grem
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 13:49:30
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backwoods
drewfx1
Perhaps that's something for people to consider when deciding whether to remain silent in the future.
Is this a polite way of saying STFU
No, but I think this is! : ) Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
If people are concerned about having to click on two forums I think they should reconsider how lenient we're being...
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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sharke
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/01 15:59:12
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backwoods
Makes total sense to me. Software discussion in one- good eq to use for this or that etc, review of certain compressor, latency of brick wall limiters, algorithm vs convo reverb, good place to get convo IRS etc.
And in the other: cc's software discount thread with numerous threatening references to ikmultimedia.
Some of that would not be out of place in the techniques forum. Which, IMO, is the most tragically underused sub forum on this site.
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Grem
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/02 09:17:02
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Yes the Techniques forum is a good place. I make a pass and read. Don't post much there though. Maybe a question or two.
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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Kroneborge
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/02 16:18:20
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I personally liked it better as one, but if this is the way it's going to be, or none at all, I prefer this way.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/04 12:30:30
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mike_mccue
I may be crazy, but I imagine myself in the silent majority.
I am one of the guys who knows how to not read what I do not want to read.
It seems like a vocal minority got bent out of shape and voiced complaints that they were distracted by paying attention to stuff they didn't want to pay attention to.
yup
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Bajan Blue
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/05 07:42:21
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I thought I'd see how things went, but I have to say I've not been terribly impressed with the changes and without doubt preferred just the one forum. Far more interesting the old way - this two way, moderated way, all seems a little anodyne.
But I suppose better than nothing, just wont feel quite as enthused to log in so often I expect.
Nigel
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Splat 
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/05 23:08:02
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☄ Helpfulby drewfx1 2014/10/06 12:04:35
For me I hardly visited the software forums because, to be honest, I'm not interested in offers. I don't want to buy anything, I don't like to see everybodies offers plastered about the place, it's just noise to me. Im one of these people who turns off the volume of the tv when commercials are playing. So now I will visit more. However if I was interested in offers I will have a forum to look at. Maybe one day I will. Also I would like to take polite issue with what people may regard as 'majority' or 'minority' opinion. Also 'silent majorities' or minorities. As no survey has been conducted with everybody who reads (not just contributes) I suggest both terms be replaced with 'assumptions to make my post look more powerful' :) Discussing what you think everybody else thinks is just that, what you think (definately NOT what 'they' think!)... Far better to express your OWN opinion, that's far more important and real. Might as well be honest about it :) Cheers..
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/10/05 23:44:09
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michaelhanson
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/05 23:48:35
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"I personally liked it better as one, but if this is the way it's going to be, or none at all, I prefer this way."
I agree with this statement. I never saw an issue with the old way, but don't want to loose it all together. I don't see it as spam, I guess, but rather software that works to enhance my experience with the DAW program I have chosen as my base platform.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Deals don't go here anymore
2014/10/06 01:55:58
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Honestly. i only commented because there was a topic. It just isn't that big of a deal to me. In fact, the only person who seems to be emotional about it is supposedly leaving. Even looking at the posts, Mike seems to question the whole thing, but i doubt he is losing sleep over it. When you think about it, most of these "new forum format topics" are probably a result of people passing by and commenting. If the cat didn't get let out of the bag early about the forum hosts, it would likely have been less of a big deal too. I think the moral of this whole thing is the squeaky wheel gets the oil and the people who have the time and perseverance when Gibson is gauging these sort of things to repeat themselves over and over to any dissenting reply are going to win out. isn't that how pop culture works?
Honestly, there are things i question, but again, it's just not that big of a deal. have i noticed some odd moderating? Yes. Do i think that favoritism plays a part in the moderation? Of course. Does it really matter? Absolutely not. The TOS was always loosely and selectively enforced before this and it still is, we just have more interaction with those doing it. Perfect example. i asked a question about covers to seek clarification and the answer I got pretty much made it clear that non-licensed covers were a no-no. Covers still get posted every day and I doubt even one person is asked whether the cover is legal. Ironically, i say a big so what. I don't expect copyrighted material to disappear and i expect even less the coffeehouse will be compliant with the code of conduct, but it just doesn't bother me. let's just say, ever thread was a violation. I can't imagine it bothering me if it doesn't bother Cakewalk.A year from now all of this will blow over and nobody will care except people who just seem to enjoy complaining.
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