Helpful ReplyQuestion on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls

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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/10/31 20:20:47 (permalink)
dmbaer 
When placing the L control about -15 (halfway left) and initially setting L width to zero, here's what happened.  As I expanded the width control, the left channel amplitude stayed nearly constant (increased but only very marginally).  The right channel level increased more.  Frozen waveforms remained identical in all cases except for amplitude (as expected based on what the meter output was indicating).
 
So, I'm going to stick to my guns here and say that in the second case (L at -15), increasing the width changed the stereo image, but it did so by moving the phantom center to the right, and the overall level increased.  One could produce exactly the same result by leaving width at zero, moving the CT L pan position a little to the right and increasing the level slightly.... 
 
 
...Beat me by six minutes, Drew.  



 
Isn't that what I said 24 hours ago...  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...anyways I'm glad I had the opportunity to enjoy using my custom dual tone two track test clip.


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Anderton
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/10/31 21:17:41 (permalink)
dmbaer
Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. 

 
You keep saying CT width is not doing what it's claiming to do, and perhaps there's where I just don't get where you're coming from. What exactly do you think it's claiming to do? If manipulating the width controls changes the perceived image from (a) to (b) or (c) in the diagram below, that certainly seems like it's affecting the width of the stereo image. What are you expecting to have happen? Phase or time manipulation? That's a whole different thing. You're not going to get phase or time manipulation simply by doing selective amplitude variation.
 

 
This is a traditional way of looking at width, which has it roots in the days of ancient analog consoles where stereo entered the picture only when panning the mono sources to a stereo output bus. If you fed a stereo signal into the console's two mono channels, then the panpots did indeed control the perceived width because the two channels were carrying DIFFERENT audio streams. Pro Tools brought that concept of width into the DAW world when it decided to treat stereo as dual mono.
 
Furthermore, if I understand what you're trying to accomplish correctly (which I'm not sure I do), using an identical mono signal in each channel is NOT how Channel Tools is intended to be used. In the scenario you're describing, Channel Tools is not about creating two independent streams from mono to give a stereo stream. Placement of a stream in a stereo field is not always the same thing as a stereo stream. Channel Tools is intended for a stereo stream were presumably, the two channels carry different audio streams. Of course, there are ways you can produce the same results with panning and level manipulation because what Channel Tools is doing in this context is panning and level manipulation, just wrapping it in a GUI that simplifies creating the adjustment you want.
 
If you're familiar with Pro Tools, this will make sense if you think of Channel Tools as replicating Pro Tools' width behavior: The L source splits into dual mono, where it goes into a Pro Tools mixer channel that has panpots for each of the dual mono L streams. Meanwhile, the R source also splits into dual mono, where it goes into another Pro Tools mixer channel that has panpots for each of the dual mono R streams. That's essentially what Channel Tools does, with the exception that it allows for each channel's panpots to have a constant amount of offset (i.e., the two side knobs are referenced to the center L or R control and can move simultaneously) if you want to maintain the same width as you try different stereo imaging effects. 
 
So can you please clarify a) what is it you are trying to accomplish, because maybe Channel Tools is not the right tool for that although you CAN do Haas effect stuff with the delays, b) what do you think it's claiming to do that it's not doing, and c) how exactly do you define "width" if you're not talking about panning and amplitude changes to alter the stereo imaging?

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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/10/31 21:29:32 (permalink)
drewfx1
Expanding the width appears to be just adding gain to both L and R in a disproportionate way depending on the pan position, so that as you increase width you get a louder signal panned a bit more towards center.



YES! Exactly!!! Except you said it in fewer words (lossless data compression algorithm, I presume). And it doesn't always have to be panned a bit more toward center, you can "weight" the signal toward the left or right.
 
I really think Channel Tools makes complete sense to anyone familiar with Pro Tools and how it uses panpots on dual mono streams to influence width...just that Channel Tools does it on a pair of dual mono streams, so you don't have to tie up two mixer channels in the process.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bitflipper
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/10/31 21:38:25 (permalink)
Indeed, you did, Mike.
 
There's nothing mysterious about how Channel Tools works. The two horizontal sliders simply control the amount of crossfeed between the left and right channels. In other words, they pan each channel as if they were two mono tracks, which of course is what they are. This can shift the image in the panorama, but it can only narrow the image, not widen it.
 
The plugin also provides gain controls for Mid and Side components, a feature completely separate from the "angle" parameters. If the stereo signal already has significant left-right differences, lowering the Mid and/or raising the Side will emphasize those differences and increase the perception of "width". It can't, however, generate width (M/S differences) if none are there, i.e. a mono signal.
 
Channel Tools can, however, fake some stereo-ness using delays - it's just your standard Haas Trick. That does do something for a mono track. Personally, I avoid that feature because with short delays it can cause comb filtering when the track is folded back to mono.
 
I'm not sure if any of this answers David's original question.
 
 
 


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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/10/31 21:49:50 (permalink)
bitflipper
I'm not sure if any of this answers David's original question.

 
No, but it's informative, to the point, and accurate 
 
How come you and DrewFX are able to say what I'm trying to say in fewer words tonight? I think I need more sleep.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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gswitz
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/10/31 23:12:22 (permalink)
In this video, I created two test tones using Zeta2.
 
I initialized the synths to zero out all the settings, then set the pulse to sign and sent a midi note to both separated in the spectrum so you can see them separately on spectrum analyzers.
 
Next, I opened 3 instances of DigiCheck's Spectrum Analyzer with vector scope. 1 was just left, one just right and one was stereo.
 
I then played with the various sliders to see what happened to the signals. I don't bother you with the signals in the audio of the video, but you can see them in the DigiCheck instances.
 
One thing that confused me is that I panned one tone center and one tone left, then pulled down the mid gain. My expectation was that the centered tone would fade out (it did) but to my surprise the tone in the left channel became equally loud in the right channel.
 
http://youtu.be/RKJxSQQRTkk
You can listen at 2x speed if you want by setting the adjustment in the playback of the video in the bottom right corner of the screen.
 

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 07:49:03 (permalink)
Ok, I'm pretty much convinced that bringing down the mid gain is the same thing as bringing up a copy of the signal with the left and right channels swapped and phase inverted. It looks identical to me. I may make a video.
 
And I think that playing with the stereo spread basically is bringing up and down the volume of the stereo swapped phase inverted track.
 
http://youtu.be/pmTb8XqawP8
 
post edited by gswitz - 2014/11/01 08:21:52

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 08:36:44 (permalink)
gswitz
Ok, I'm pretty much convinced that bringing down the mid gain is the same thing as bringing up a copy of the signal with the left and right channels swapped and phase inverted. It looks identical to me. I may make a video.
 
And I think that playing with the stereo spread basically is bringing up and down the volume of the stereo swapped phase inverted track.




You have introduced Mid Side issues to the discussion. We had more or less side stepped those so far. It seems to me that you have demonstrated exactly what you should expect from a M/S matrix. In the case of your test, at approx minute 3, when you pull the mid all the way down the vector scope displays the horizonal line from s+ to s-. This indicates that the "difference" in your signal is 100%, which is what you should expect from the routing you have set up.
 
Channel Tools has a mid/side, a.k.a. same/difference, encoder and decoder in it's "stereo" input signal flow and as soon as you touch the mid or side knobs you should see some results:
 

 
BTW, What software do you use to make your videos?
 
 


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gswitz
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 09:06:15 (permalink)
I have an MSDN license, so I get a free copy of MS Expression. I usually record the audio channels (b/c I can record multiple channels at once and mix it later) with RME DigiCheck. I record audio with MS Expression too, but only to line up the audio I mix in Sonar with the video. I nudge the audio left and right until it lines up properly. I use the length of the audio recorded by Expression to define the length of the audio to include in the video and fade the ends of the clips and stuff.
 
That way, when the mix is too loud or soft compared to my voice, I can adjust it so the watcher can hear what I'm talking about.
 
Sometimes I forget or mess up something and maybe fail to record the master outs or something like that. That's what happened in the video yesterday.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 09:12:24 (permalink)
So, Mike, I guess I thought that the 'Width' controls might actually just be kinda a stereo swapped phase inverted panned (left and right not necessarily at same volume) track.
 
That's where I was going with it. Or trying to go with it.
 
I'm probably completely wrong. It just looks like it might help explain the width spreaders.
 

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 09:18:53 (permalink)
"I have an MSDN license, so I get a free copy of MS Expression"
 
Thanks Geoff. I have an old license to Adobe Captivate but I don't want to install it on my DAW. I (re)downloaded Camtasia recently, but quickly remembered that I don't want that on any of my systems.
 
Maybe I'll look at MS Expression.


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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 09:24:37 (permalink)
gswitz
So, Mike, I guess I thought that the 'Width' controls might actually just be kinda a stereo swapped phase inverted panned (left and right not necessarily at same volume) track.
 
That's where I was going with it. Or trying to go with it.
 
I'm probably completely wrong. It just looks like it might help explain the width spreaders.
 




I don't really know Geoff,
 
I saw pretty much the same thing you saw, and I think it is what David and Drew saw as well. Dave (bit) mentioned the Haas effect, which can certainly be introduced with the delay controls, and I think I was seeing an ever so slight shift when using the "width" controls but it seemed very, very minor and so the effect of causing a change with the width controls seemed to be primarily a change in level and simple panning.
 
I'm sticking with my summary. Q: what does the width control do? A: Not very much.
 
 


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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 11:26:57 (permalink)
gswitz
Ok, I'm pretty much convinced that bringing down the mid gain is the same thing as bringing up a copy of the signal with the left and right channels swapped and phase inverted. It looks identical to me. I may make a video.
 
And I think that playing with the stereo spread basically is bringing up and down the volume of the stereo swapped phase inverted track.
 
http://youtu.be/pmTb8XqawP8
 




BINGO!


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#43
Anderton
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 11:36:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2014/11/01 14:42:37
I don't care what anyone thinks about Channels Tools, and I don't care whether they use it or not. I keep responding because what I do care about is those for whom this would be the perfect solution to a music production problem, and might pass over it either because they didn't understand how to apply it, or took comments about CT not doing much at face value. As has been pointed it, CT offers several different functions but here I'm talking only about using the width and pan controls for precise imaging in the stereo soundstage.
 
The reason why I find Channel Tools crucial is that 99% of what I track is stereo. Even something as seemingly simple as tambourine is stereo because I incorporate the room. Sources that are truly mono, like vocals, often end up in stereo due to processing.
 
With stereo the channel panpot becomes a balance control. Leaving the Pan control centered and instead using Channel Tools to provide precise stereo width imaging independently for each stream from the stereo source is extremely helpful, while placing each stream to cover a precise portion of the stereo soundstage can improve a mix's clarity. 
 
If you don't work that way, the width control won't seem to do much. If you do, the width control avoids what I did pre-Channel Tools, which was building on the Pro Tools paradigm by splitting the stereo into two mono tracks, then copying each mono track into two channels for independent control over width for each stream (four channels total - a PITA).
 
I had to do this a lot with the Antonio Soler and Bach solo harpsichord projects I recorded with Kathleen McIntosh. We both preferred close-miking the harpsichord, so I miked the high and low strings independently. With the low mic, the L channel would pan full left and with the high mic, the R channel would pan full right. I could then use the low R channel pan and R left channel pan to place the "split point" for the keyboard in the precise middle of the stereo image, and/or weight/overlap the images toward the center so it sounded like you were sitting in front of the harpsichord compared to the more exaggerated stereo obtained by using two mics (which could be addressed only partially by using two stereo tracks with conventional panning). Doing very subtle manipulations on an almost subliminal level of the stereo placement to match particular pieces, and even doing extremely subtle changes between movements, prevented having a "sameness" throughout the CDs yet retained the harpsichord's fundamental sound and character.
 
You could probably come close by using two stereo channels and playing with the pan and level controls instead of breaking it into four channels, but there's significant interaction among the controls ("okay, now the right channel seems louder, so I guess I need to increase the level of the left, then group them and bring them both down a bit..."). It's much more convenient and flexible to be able to do all that with a plug-in on a single track compared to splitting, copying, and creating additional channels, or manipulating pan and level with two channels.
 
Here's a simple experiment so you can hear how I used this with material like Kathleen's.
 
1. Load the Grand Piano 1v 4th into Dimension Pro. This is a stereo piano with low notes weighted toward the left, and high notes weighted toward the right.
2. Play a part that covers the full range of the keyboard.
3. Insert Channel Tools. Play around with the Pan and Width controls, and you'll hear how easy it is to manipulate the stereo image to weight the keyboard however you want - make it more stereo, make it more mono, emphasize the lower notes, the higher notes, etc. etc.
4. After you get a sound you like, copy the track, split it into two mono streams, and put them in different channels. Now try to use the channel amplitude and pan controls to duplicate the sound you obtained in (3), and you'll see/hear how Channel Tools make the process so much easier.
 
So how did the critics react to the recordings? I must have done something right...
 
Padre Antonio Soler Sonatas 
"This is probably the finest recording of selected sonatas of Soler that I have heard; indeed, I find it even more satisfying than the fine performances on a modern piano by the esteemed Alicia de Larrocha." 
Victor Hill - The Diapason
 
Kathleen McIntosh plays Bach 
"The playing is fresh and insightful, eager and probing... The French Overture proceeds with perfect poise... while the Fantasy and Fugue in A minor is like listening to McIntosh build a palace of sound...Highly recommended." 
Craig Smith - The Santa Fe New Mexican
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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drewfx1
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 11:44:49 (permalink)
mike_mccue
 
I'm sticking with my summary. Q: what does the width control do? A: Not very much.



I think that's fair from a technical standpoint. But just because there's no complicated DSP going on doesn't mean it's not potentially useful for anything.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 11:45:52 (permalink)
drewfx1
But just because there's no complicated DSP going on doesn't mean it's not potentially useful for anything.



See post #44 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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drewfx1
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 11:49:06 (permalink)
Anderton
drewfx1
But just because there's no complicated DSP going on doesn't mean it's not potentially useful for anything.



See post #44 




Yes, but mine was more concise. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 11:52:30 (permalink)
drewfx1
mike_mccue
 
I'm sticking with my summary. Q: what does the width control do? A: Not very much.



I think that's fair from a technical standpoint. But just because there's no complicated DSP going on doesn't mean it's not potentially useful for anything.




I think I am figuring out that width is good for making stuff sound louder on both sides of the aisle, while simultaneously making stuff less wide.
 
News at 11... ish.


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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 12:06:08 (permalink)
drewfx1
Anderton
drewfx1
But just because there's no complicated DSP going on doesn't mean it's not potentially useful for anything.



See post #44 




Yes, but mine was more concise. 




As I've mentioned before, many of my responses are directed to those "on the sidelines" reading the thread for their own edification as opposed to responding solely to those posting in the thread. I felt that with all the talk of math, vectorscopes, and theory, it would be helpful for people who are more interested in making music than arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to have an explanation from a practical standpoint why Channel Tools can be useful, a real-world example of how to apply it, and an experiment they could conduct themselves to prove its usefulness (or lack thereof, depending on the projects they do) to their own satisfaction. After that post, I don't need to say anything more on the subject. People are smart enough to make up their own minds. I just want to make sure they have as full a data set as possible.
 
Then again, filters don't do much either. They're just amplifiers that affect only certain frequencies. 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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John
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 12:19:33 (permalink)
Well I can't add anything because I don't have a big interest in how it works. I have used a few times and set it to where it sounded as I wanted and was fine with it. 
 
This thread is interesting, though. The OP asked a very good question.

Best
John
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gswitz
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 12:20:14 (permalink)
Craig,
 
Post 44 I think has finally helped me understand how you use the width control. I now believe I was wrong about the phase inverted stereo swapped business I mentioned. Sorry for misleading anyone. I was only trying to understand it.
 
I think I'm at last getting a grip on it, and it's pretty simple, really. I was looking for something more complicated, and when I noticed what the mid-gain nob was doing, it made me suspect that the same trick might be in use for the width... especially since that trick is used to create a sense of width in the mid-side technique that isn't real. It's a mono side channel panned left and right and phase inverted.
 
So instead of having to mess with the volume fader in conjunction with the pan, you can use the width sliders.
 
Does it sound like I'm cluing in?
 
You wouldn't invert the phase of the 2 tracks you used to spread the stereo, would you? If you did (if channel tools does) then you can anticipate minor changes to the track when you flip mono.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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drewfx1
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 12:35:18 (permalink)
Anderton
As I've mentioned before, many of my responses are directed to those "on the sidelines" reading the thread for their own edification as opposed to responding solely to those posting in the thread.

 
I was just having some fun with you Craig based on your "fewer words" comment last night. 
 

I felt that with all the talk of math, vectorscopes, and theory, it would be helpful for people who are more interested in making music than arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to have an explanation from a practical standpoint why Channel Tools can be useful, a real-world example of how to apply it



I don't think trying to figure out exactly what a processor is doing to a signal is an impractical discussion. And I don't think it's helpful to imply that understanding this sort of thing isn't useful in the real world.
 
My impression was that "all the talk of math, vectorscopes, and theory" was because the OP wanted to know exactly what was going on technically and I think there was some disconnect between that and your approaching it more from a "how to use it" standpoint.
 
Personally I think those are both useful discussions, but not necessarily at the same time. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 13:29:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2014/11/01 14:41:55

 
I'm thinking the "width" buttons could have been called "more". :-)
 
I wouldn't have thought much about it, but when David posed a specific question about the "width" parameter I realized I hadn't thought about it much, so I spent a few minutes thinking about it.
 
 
 


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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 13:32:40 (permalink)
drewfx1
I don't think trying to figure out exactly what a processor is doing to a signal is an impractical discussion. And I don't think it's helpful to imply that understanding this sort of thing isn't useful in the real world.



Agreed. Nothing I said implied that understanding how things work isn't useful in the real world. I didn't expect anyone to infer that I felt what I wrote should replace anything. I wanted to supplement the discussion with tools that would allow people to do their own experiments, and therefore apply theory to practice. This way they could make up their own minds about the validity of the various opinions and speculation, and determine suitability for their own workflow and applications instead of taking anyone's word for it.
 
I think it's possible to make use of a tool without understanding the theory behind it, although knowing the theory will almost always help you apply a tool more thoroughly or appropriately. However, I think any discussion of the theory behind tools designed for music production doesn't have much value without explaining how and why that tool would be actually be used, and what purpose it would serve.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#54
bitflipper
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 13:33:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2014/11/01 14:42:14
I don't think trying to figure out exactly what a processor is doing to a signal is an impractical discussion. And I don't think it's helpful to imply that understanding this sort of thing isn't useful in the real world.

I couldn't agree more.
 
Pilots have to study aeronautics, race car drivers have to understand physics and automotive engineering. And anybody claiming to be an audio engineer needs to understand at least a little about audio, digital signal processing, acoustics, psycho-acoustics, electronics, and even the human auditory system. Otherwise, you're just a monkey twisting knobs until it sounds good.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#55
Anderton
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 13:37:45 (permalink)
gswitz
Post 44 I think has finally helped me understand how you use the width control. I now believe I was wrong about the phase inverted stereo swapped business I mentioned. Sorry for misleading anyone. I was only trying to understand it.



I think part of the confusion is that the plug-in is Channel Tools, not Channel Tool. There are phase, delay, and M/S tricks you can do that are unrelated to my example of setting precise widths in a stereo soundstage. What I'm doing is simple from a theoretical standpoint, and has a precedent with the way things were done with analog consoles, which got carried over to Pro Tools and has now been improved within SONAR. However, even basic CT functions can produce quite sophisticated results with real-world music production.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#56
Anderton
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 13:46:14 (permalink)
bitflipper
I don't think trying to figure out exactly what a processor is doing to a signal is an impractical discussion. And I don't think it's helpful to imply that understanding this sort of thing isn't useful in the real world.

I couldn't agree more.
 
Pilots have to study aeronautics, race car drivers have to understand physics and automotive engineering. And anybody claiming to be an audio engineer needs to understand at least a little about audio, digital signal processing, acoustics, psycho-acoustics, electronics, and even the human auditory system. Otherwise, you're just a monkey twisting knobs until it sounds good.




I think it's obvious I never implied that knowing how things work isn't useful. However, not all musical elements involve engineering. I know producers who really don't know much theory, but they know which knobs to twist to get the sounds they want. For example, they have no idea what diffusion does in a digital reverb, but they know that higher diffusion works best for percussive sounds and lower diffusion for sustained sounds. Someone who knows how diffusion works is at a disadvantage if they can't relate that knowledge to applying proper processing to the source material that needs to be processed.
 
There are also many examples of musicians who don't know music theory but produce works with astonishing emotional impact. Then again, I think part of the reason why Bach's work endures to this day and, at least IMHO, has never been equalled in terms of the economical usage of harmony and counterpoint is because he was so well-versed in music theory.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#57
drewfx1
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 14:30:00 (permalink)
I think we actually agree Craig and I understand where you're coming from. 
 
I just thought your particular choice of words in appealing to those who might not be interested in the technical nitty gritty stuff was quite inadvertently a little insulting to some of us, so I pointed it out.
 
It's all good.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Anderton
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 14:51:14 (permalink)
drewfx1
I just thought your particular choice of words in appealing to those who might not be interested in the technical nitty gritty stuff was quite inadvertently a little insulting to some of us, so I pointed it out.



If people stopped being interested in the technical nitty griffy of how stuff worked, the writing part of my career would be over!

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question on Channel Tools L and R Width Controls 2014/11/01 14:56:36 (permalink)
I continue to be curious about this "width" stuff and I think I'd enjoy learning what the person who programmed intended it to do.
 
In the abscence of that sort of info I went ahead and made a track bounce using Channel Tools with "width" widgets spread to the sides. The "L" was set at -15 degrees and its width was 50%. The "R" was set at +15 degrees and its width was also 50%.
 
As a comparison but certainly not a direct comparison I also made a bounce to track of the same source running through Waves S-1 with its "width" parameter set to "2"
 
Here is a screen shot:
 

I suggest using a right click view image to see it at full scale
 
The change in the waveforms makes me very curious about what happens in either of the "width" processes. I don't know how to interpret the shapes I am seeing so I want to share it as it seems like some sort of specific result and maybe someone can share some ideas with us.
 
I found it interesting that increasing the "width" of channel tools made my level meters indicate an increase in output while increasing the "width" in Waves S-1 made my level meters indicate a decrease in output levels, although neither of the bounced tracks seem to clearly illustrate the difference I saw on the master bus level meters when I played the source track with one or the other dsp set as active.
 
 
 


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