mettelus
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2015/06/25 17:45:24
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This is funny... I just ran GR5 (8.3ms latency through Saffire) out through a PA 18' away and played it for a few hours without issues. I even took a video on my cell to demonstrate that, but when I offloaded it the video/audio are not synched in Premiere Pro. Made me laugh, since if I have to force sync, it negates the video anyway. Oh well.
Bottom line is for folks to test this for themselves. I get concerned at times when these pop up, since folks focus on one part to define a system. Everything from that string attack to sound hitting your ear is included, so any "processing" or distance is included in the overall effect. Threads like this imply that someone cannot stray more than 5' from their amp (which is honestly not a good practice to "condition" oneself too).
When my friend visits I will "guinea pig" him and have him OP test this and see what he says. Someone who has never used any DAW before is a perfect "unbiased" test.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2015/06/25 18:06:35
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mettelus
This is funny... I just ran GR5 (8.3ms latency through Saffire) out through a PA 18' away and played it for a few hours without issues. I even took a video on my cell to demonstrate that, but when I offloaded it the video/audio are not synched in Premiere Pro. Made me laugh, since if I have to force sync, it negates the video anyway. Oh well.
Bottom line is for folks to test this for themselves. I get concerned at times when these pop up, since folks focus on one part to define a system. Everything from that string attack to sound hitting your ear is included, so any "processing" or distance is included in the overall effect. Threads like this imply that someone cannot stray more than 5' from their amp (which is honesI haven't yet been increase the latency on my system. When I do I hope it proves that latency is not an issue with modern USB interfaces.tly not a good practice to "condition" oneself too).
When my friend visits I will "guinea pig" him and have him OP test this and see what he says. Someone who has never used any DAW before is a perfect "unbiased" test.
I haven't yet been able to increase the latency on my system. The driver is old and not intuitive. When I do I hope it proves that latency is not a significant issue. In the meantime, test away, and let us know how it goes.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2015/06/25 18:17:57
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Karyn
Hey Jim
Normally I agree with every word you say without even reading it...
The stage I normally work is 20 feet deep by 30 feet wide. With a guitar amp on the back of the stage and the guitarist playing to the crowd at the front, that's an instant 20ms (approx) lag...
If you put the guitar in a front of stage monitor and the guitarist is 6' tall he still hears a 6ms lag (with a 14ms slap back echo from the backline).
My point? My personal opinion is it's unrealistic to expect latency less than 10ms as if the "real world" was better. It just doesn't happen unless you spend your entire career wearing headphones or IEMs.
Hi Karyn, I play live quite a bit...  You can compensate/accommodate larger delays... but it starts to affect feel/comfort. ie: When going out into the audience, you can really start to feel the lag. In the studio, play thru an amp-sim plugin at 5ms total round-trip latency, then at 14ms, then go back to 5ms. Which one feels better? I much prefer the immediacy (feel) of low round-trip latency. With today's gear, it's easy to achieve low round-trip latency. Make the right choice... and it's a non issue.
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Karyn
Ma-Ma
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2015/06/25 18:43:35
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Jim Roseberry
Hi Karyn,
I play live quite a bit...
Yeah, I know you do, that's why I mentioned it. Don't mind me, I'm just grumpy because I can't afford a Focusrite Rednet setup that'll give me less than 2ms round trip...
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TPayton
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2015/06/29 18:42:53
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Interesting discussion. Within the last year I replaced an aging PCI based interface with a newer USB (Focusrite 18i20) interface. I actually get better latency performance with the new usb interface than I did with the old PCI based system. USB interfaces have come a long way in the last few years.
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mudgel
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/02/22 23:50:25
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JohnEgan
While a lot of people say USB2 will easily handle bandwidth requirements of most typical/smaller applications, since recently moving to an RME-UFX and using USB2 connection, I seem to have more snap, crackle and pop (not from my rice kripsies) and drop-out issues, simply playing/mixing my recorded tracks than I ever had with my ($300) 10 year old M-audio Delta 1010LT PCI interface card, to the point where I may go back to using it, and thinking I've made a somewhat costly mistake. I'm not sure what else to attribute this to other than the USB interface, assuming/hoping the RME-UFX isn't a total P.O.C., (aside from apparently the USB interface), perhaps I can still use the mic preamps, directly to outputs without using USB (anyone want a deal on an RME-UFX?). I'm going to now try using the Firewire interface for a while and see if I still have the same issues. Any advice or comments on similar experiences that may help would be appreciated?
Cheers
I too have an RME UFX and get the same performance whether using the FireWire or USB interface. As Jim said there are a number of precautions to take that are just part and parcel of setting up your hardware. Provided your unit is functioning properly, and having done those things everything should run well. Another feature of the UFX s with many other devices is that you can monitor direct from the UFX rather than Sonar. That means you can use larger buffers with no latency. It's Total Mix app is an extremely flexible software mixer with very solid onboard DSP and routing facilities
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/02/23 08:52:42
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Majority of the time, I've got the UFX set to 48-sample ASIO buffer size.
Completely glitch-free...
You can double-check for glitches by looking in the Fireface settings (next to ASIO buffer size). Any dropped samples will be listed.
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Starise
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/02/23 11:22:46
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It looks as if the TB discussion has taken a few turns....not bad turns mind you. I think Thunderbolt might have a chance if Intel can pull off the USB-C idea. It sacrifices some performance over an optical connection but it's still better than USB 3 in speed and it will for the first time unify a standard that can be supported by others. The main reason that USB 2.0 is more prevalent than USB 3 for audio work is that the data is handled differently and the gain in performance going to USB 3.0 is not really a great gain for audio handling for the basic user...so manufacturers have stayed with USB 2.0 which should stay with us for awhile yet, although some have gone to USB 3.0. The main reason USB in general has been so popular for audio recording is because it is so easy for a novice user to use and the emerging standards aren't mature enough yet. Thunderbolt can certainly be a real contender in the near future under Intel since it offers more in terms of speed.
post edited by Starise - 2016/02/23 11:42:22
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/02/24 10:11:12
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I've upgraded my motherboard to one that has the new Thunderbolt 3 controller (via USB-C connection). What's nice about this scenario is that you've got USB-3, USB-3.1 (newest controller uses 4 PCIe lanes for a total bandwidth of 32Mbps, and you've got TB3 (40Mbps). Here's a link to the details: https://thunderbolttechnology.net/blog/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-does-it-all I like this scenario... as you've got all (higher bandwidth) bases pretty well covered.
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pentimentosound
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/02/24 12:36:52
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Whoa! 40Gbps! I was hoping for a usb3 I/O but obviously a new MOBO and TB I/O makes way more sense. Not that I am able to buy one now, but which mobo did you get Jim?
Michael
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FLZapped
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/24 06:33:02
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TerraSin
It's about time for an update though. USB 2 has been standard for a long time now and we need to progress.
There is USB 3 now, yet manufacturers seem to be ignoring it even though it is far more common in PCs than Thunderbolt is....
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/24 09:35:50
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☄ Helpfulby Starise 2016/03/25 09:51:44
USB 3.1 is available on the latest generation motherboards. The USB-IF (USB 3.1) controller uses 4 PCIe Gen3 lanes and has a total bandwidth of 32Gb/Sec. That's a lot of bandwidth for external peripherals. Thunderbolt 2 offers 20Gb/Sec bandwidth. Thunderbolt 3 offers 40Gb/Sec bandwidth. Apple is pushing Thunderbolt 2 hard... because Thunderbolt 2 is absolutely critical for Mac users. Current generation Macbook/Pro, iMac, and Mac Pro Cylinders have no other means of accessing the PCIe bus. I mentioned this in another thread... If you're feeling left out of the Thunderbolt loop/excitement, checkout the cost of some Thunderbolt peripherals. - A 1TB Thunderbolt HD is ~$200.
- An empty Thunderbolt 1 bay (holds 2 or 3 drives - no drives included) is $300.
I've got 9 SSDs/HDs attached to my current machine. That would cost double/triple to duplicate via Thunderbolt. Most audio interfaces are nowhere near saturating the USB 2 bus. IMO, This is why you're not seeing mass movement to USB 3 and USB 3.1. Simply adding more (unused) bandwidth to the situation won't increase performance. Liken the situation to your car. Say its top speed is 120mph. Doesn't matter if you're on a two lane highway or an eight lane freeway... your top speed is 120mph. Adding more lanes (bandwidth) won't increase performance. It'll be interesting to see how things shake out. Out of the few USB3 audio interfaces that currently exist... none have equaled (let alone bested) the best USB2 units when it comes to round-trip latency. The Apollo Twin Duo is doing pretty well... but not quite as low as RME/MOTU.
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jayson
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/25 17:38:46
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Anyone find a TB1/2 to USB-C adaptor on the market anywhere?
Cheers,
jayson
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FLZapped
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/26 09:37:57
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Jim Roseberry
USB 3.1 is available on the latest generation motherboards.
The USB-IF (USB 3.1) controller uses 4 PCIe Gen3 lanes and has a total bandwidth of 32Gb/Sec.
I don't know where you got this reference, everything I've found says 10Gbps. Thunderbolt has a mini displayport capability, which could be important to some. Thunderbolt is also vulnerable to Option ROM and DMA attacks, although I don't know of any reported cases of this happening.
post edited by FLZapped - 2016/03/26 10:05:45
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/26 10:45:05
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FLZapped
Jim Roseberry
USB 3.1 is available on the latest generation motherboards.
The USB-IF (USB 3.1) controller uses 4 PCIe Gen3 lanes and has a total bandwidth of 32Gb/Sec.
I don't know where you got this reference, everything I've found says 10Gbps.
The controller has a total bandwidth of up to 32Gbps (uses 4 PCIe lanes - can vary depending on the model). 10Gbps is per USB 3.1 port. Quote pulled directly from manufacturer's website: "The Intel ® USB 3.1 controller utilizes 4 PCIe Gen3 lanes, offering up to 32 Gb/s total bandwidth, for uncompromised transfer speeds of up to 10 Gb/s per USB 3.1." I'm currently using this motherboard.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/26 10:51:28
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jayson
Anyone find a TB1/2 to USB-C adaptor on the market anywhere?
StarTech should have one available April 24th. StarTech Model TBT3TBTADAP Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter $81 (online)
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jayson
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Re: Thunderbolt is dead. Long live Thunderbolt!
2016/03/28 01:22:43
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Thanks Jim.
Cheers,
jayson
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