The New Notation Fixes Thread!

Now that Sonar developers have shown us they can and will fix staff view bugs, I think we can safely dismiss the attitude that they don't care or don't have the expertise to do so.  Any group of developers who've created Sonar Platinum have proven their expertise many times to this composer, I have no doubt if the will and funding is there, Sonar's staff view can be improved.   What I hope for, as I've mentioned before, is to consider this:  The staff view is primarily a MIDI editor, it is not an aspect of the program designed to create finished, publish-quality scores.  Parts? OK...   Lead sheets?  Sure!   Sketches for band members?  That too!  Advances in music notation, publishing and print quality are such that notation on the level of a fully professional score is primarily a graphics issue, and a DAW is primarily a piece of software that works in the medium of sound.  I know some people want a "jack-of-all-trades" piece of software, and to a degree, all DAWS are already adaptable to a wide range of purposes.   But really, most people understand the value of specialized software that does one or two things very well--which is why some music publishers still use SCORE, by Leland Smith (I used it for 10 years).   This program was pre-Windows and did (does) one thing and one thing only:  Output gorgeous and accurate scores. 
 
None of the DAW notation editors are as powerful as Sibelius or SCORE, nor do they need to be.  For those who are new, Sibelius isn't a DAW, it's not a music production tool, it is a graphics tool designed with the final purpose being the creation of fully realized music notation.
 
What Sonar's notation can use in my opinion are really only three things:
 
1. Bring the note resolution down to 64th notes.   That includes 32nd and 64th note triplets.
2. Fix the dotted, tied and nested triplet issue (all triplets) so that they conform to SMN (standard music notation)
3. Change the way dotted notes are displayed:  The dot should never be on a staff line, instead always above the line the note is on, based on SMN rules. 
 
That's it.  
 
If Cakewalk does this, Sonar's staff view will be equal to any DAWs MIDI editor.  It can already handle mixed meters, changing meters and fractional tempos, AND, Sonar has the added value of having tabs with multiple staff views visible, and a staff view that doesn't emulate a page of printed music, but rather a score running across the entire width of the screen.  I hope Sonar's developers understand what a great help that is to composers. Also, cutting and pasting section in Sonar's notation is easy, once you get the hang of it.  As a tip, with the new Sonar Control Bar, here's how I set up the custom module:
 
Save                 Copy                                      Cut
Paste                Paste To: (paste special)      Undo
Redo                 History                                  Fit Tracks  (Resize and zoom)
 
 
 
Sonar's market:
 
songwriters
composers
film composers
game composers
TV composers
arrangers
orchestrators
educators and instructors
house of worship music services
 
All of the above make frequent use of music notation.  And these people:
 
sound designers
sound engineers
mixing engineers
live sound people
musicians who don't read or write SMN
amateurs who just like to fool around with the software
 
will also have a first class DAW in audio and plug-in usage and flexibility, which Sonar amply and competently demonstrates.
 
That's my opinion based on writing music in Sonar since 1991. 
 
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

michael diemer
Great post, Jerry. I would only add that the printing function should be able to organize a score, so that the first page shows the entire orchestra, and subsequent pages only have the instruments actually playing. (I am using 8.5; perhaps later versions have this - if so, disregard). This eliminates endless pages with mostly empty space!

Michael, why not use Sibelius, Score or Finale or Notion or some other program designed not as a DAW but as notation program instead for that?   Software already exists that has the notational sophistication you are seeking.   I still believe that notation's role in MIDI input and editing is really what a DAW is about, and what the original creators of Sonar intended. 

Jerry, I will be doing just that. My plan is to export my projects into MuseScore and edit them further there. For years I have been making two versions of my works, a sound version and a print version. The latter is cleaned up as much as possible. I used to print them out and then do the rest by hand! (I have literally cut-and-pasted). So exporting into notation software will be (hopefully) an improvement. I don't need anything high-falutin as I'm a hobbyist, so something like MuseScore should be fine.

Thanks Jerry. That's a great post.

Kamikaze
Many users have asked for the notes options to be returned to the Staff view, as it used to be. I know you have set up short cuts, and prefer that way. So why not have it as an option, something you can hide if you don't need. 
 
I also like the idea of dragging out the note length, rather than pre selecting it. Be it whilst holding CTRL or shift or something or a right click hold option or something. This seems far more intuitive to me.

Digital Performer has two notation editors, one allows only one staff at a time, the other is Quickscribe.  The one that only allows one staff can do what you're suggesting, one enters a note by dragging its length.  Unfortunately, once the note is entered, you can't change it by dragging.  I think it's a bug, because the DP manual says you can do it, but I couldn't get it to work. 
 
I used Sonar for many years when the note icons were in the staff view.  Given that I am your normal cranky nerd who doesn't like when things change, I was annoyed too when the note icons disappeared.   But I really urge you to try keybinding because it really is just as fast or faster as using note icons (depending upon whether you bind with one key or two, such as CTRL or ALT + a key).  
 
Jerry
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I Believe that what drives a developer to "IMPROVE" a feature is the same as
always... profit, and the averages of all the reasons the largest market share target
purchases a DAW for;
 
I don't think notation will ever be high enough on that list to make a critical difference
to the Bakers, as long as better and more nominally priced apps exist 3rd party.
 
jm2c
Mel

I can see the advantage of keybindings Jerry, but it seems the easiest fix of all, to a return a function to where it was. The fact it prompted you to look into keybindings shows that removing the function made the program less usable instead of more. Probably moved for the sake of aesthetics, and not practicality. Making it hide-able would would simply please both camps.  

The thread I started on notation fixes is still going strong at 24 pages!  I am so glad to see even more support for this much needed feature getting pounded in to shape! Please, bakers! Are you watching?

I counted around 150 posters interested in fixes going back a few years across about 5 threads. I don't recall 150 posters showing interest in anything else. There were about large number of posters at the beginning of the Sid's thread, of course there will also be posters reading that thread that didn't comment as well.
 
So if people post they are called vocal if they don't then they don't exist. Seems you can't count either way then! 
 
All while cakewalk boasts about it's 'great notation' resources in it's advertising.

^3.... Love this idea!

OldTimerNewComer
I Believe that what drives a developer to "IMPROVE" a feature is the same as
always... profit, and the averages of all the reasons the largest market share target
purchases a DAW for;
 
I don't think notation will ever be high enough on that list to make a critical difference
to the Bakers, as long as better and more nominally priced apps exist 3rd party.
 
jm2c
Mel

 Google is full of people who dropped Sonar because of notation. I do believe the author of this thread started to use MOTU DP and came back.
 An end user wants some efficiency in DAW notation and if it is to performed by other musicians it transferred to a notation app. 

I'd like to thank Jerry for all of his contributions over the years in general, and this latest thread in particular.
 
I'd also like to say +1 to Kamikaze's post. I was thinking exactly the same thing as Kamikaze posted when I was reading Craig's post. Craig, I have the utmost respect for you, as well. But Cakewalk needs to know that while I am not a vocal member of the forum, I am a regular user of Sonar, I've purchased almost every upgrade since Pro Audio 5, and I use the staff view! That's why I posted in Sid's thread early on (thanks to you too, Sid) and now in Jerry's latest thread. I'd like to think that I count, and that there are many more people like me that also count.

jatoth
Do any of the current staff view fixes (4) address long standing bugs, or are they just fixes to the UI that were introduced with the X series? I could be wrong, but I don't see any bug fixes to the "core" yet.
Hope springs eternal.

Mostly fixes since X1. 
 
1. Snap function fixed
2. Order of tracks in track pane when switching screensets fixed
3. Order of tracks in track pane when opening file fixed
4. Easier to click on notes on ledger lines to bring up note properties (still not perfect, but definitely better)
 
But several improvements over the Pre X days:
1.  Dark track pane easier to see
2.  Tabs--locked tabs are great for setting up multiple staff views.  Didn't exist before X1
 

noynekker
 
 
And what's with the #'s and b's . .  today I'm editing in the key of A major, and  I can't add C# . . I'm stuck with Db ?
 

That doesn't sound right.  If you choose A major as the key (3 sharps) Sonar knows and when you insert a C it will be C-sharp automatically.  If you want it to be d-flat, , or c-natural, click on note properties and change it, or, go to interpolate if you want to change all c#s to D-flats.  Same if you don't specify a key signature, it might be C major but it could be 12-tone, chromatic, modal or some other keynote that has the tonal gravity.  In that case though it's the same, You can change any note into its enharmonic equivalent through properties or interpolate.
 
You can also change a note, such as a-natural to b-flat by clicking on both mouse buttons while dragging the note, using either the draw or select tool.
 
JG
 
 

noynekker
 
I really like kamikaze's point about being able to drag out the note lengths.
 

Thanks, but Cityrat takes credit for finding that Gif file of drawing out not lengths. I just also think it's a great idea and think Staff View should act a bot more like PRV in that we draw and edit notes out and in, rather than drop them in.