Keni
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/03 22:55:22
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I worked on boards that were hard wired...
In actuality they went through a patch bay which is where mults came in so that you could split sends to multiple locations...
I also worked on boards that had buss selection.. Some that allowed multiple sends and some didn't....
Lots of variety...
But we always found and find our work arounds...
Tape machines were typically hard wired to the board's inputs as well, but again through a patch bay where things could be changed...
For me, that's what a studio is. ...a place of versatility!
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/03 23:32:56
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yorolpal
Bingo! :-)
I guess I'm not following what your objection is to using a track send to accomplish the same thing? A send *is* exactly the same thing as a track output, except that it has an independent gain and pan control (the send pan can be linked to the track pan) Sending one one output to two destinations simultaneously requires the signal to be split (or two wires if you prefer to imagine it that way) so its really one and the same thing.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/03 23:36:01
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yorolpal
Yes Craig...that is what we want to do...we just want to able to pick or create two (or more) " busses" and NOT sends to route the audio of a track out to. We don't want to be limited to one BUS per track. It might all end up at the same place but it's how you get there that matters. I guess those of us who'd like to see this implementation (ala Reaper) don't really get the push back from those who know how to "make it happen" via a workaround in Sonar. Again...just another way to skin a cat. Which, really, is a horrible expression don't you think?
Again you are losing me here. Why are you limited by one bus per track? You can use as many or as few buses as you want. A send is simply a wire connecting one bus to another with a volume and pan pot.
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/03 23:48:19
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The distinction at this point for Sonar is a track SEND can be pre/post fader, and a track OUTPUT is just post.
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yorolpal
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/03 23:52:23
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It's a simple case of semantics, ol pal. As I alluded in my reply to my original post it's just another way of thinking about and/or implementing the same thing. I, and others, would much prefer just being able to assign a track to multiple busses to achieve the same end. I, if you haven't surmised already, am routing impaired. I would simply like to be able to assign certain tracks in the drum folder of my "normal" template to two busses...one, my regular drum bus, and the other my NYC compression bus. I know I can achieve this using "sends" but, honestly it seems a simpler more intuitive solution to just allow you to route what you want, where you want, the way you understand and how you want to route something. I don't see why you cannot simply assign a track to multiple busses. What would be wrong with that? Again, I've been working within the confines of Sonar for lo these many years and will gladly continue to do so. But what would be hard or wrong with letting us assign a tracks output to multiple busses? I would remind you that Cake offers us myriad ways of accomplishing the very same tasks in almost every facet of the program...so why not here as well?
post edited by yorolpal - 2015/07/04 00:07:50
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 00:00:26
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Nothing wrong with it - we just didnt implement it that way since sends are a more flexible way of doing exactly the same thing since they give you a gainstage.
But I think I can see your point - if you don't ever need a gainstage then the sends are extra clutter. Essentially you want the post fader track output to go to multiple destinations.
Of course the UI would have to be set up to understand that and there would be backwards compatibility implications but you wouldn't want to bother yourself with those details :)
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yorolpal
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 00:02:59
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Absolutely right :-) When you're a dimwit like me details are your least concern!
post edited by yorolpal - 2015/07/04 00:11:00
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 00:23:53
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A couple of years ago Jonus posted a link to his template that SENT various tracks to multiple buses with NO track output for exactly this purpose.
I do use the gain of the SENDs at times.
So::: how would this work?
Add an output, like adding a send?
How would that be displayed in the inspector, in the CV?
How about using a "Pop Up" on tracks and buses that displays all buses with check boxes to enable
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ampfixer
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 00:25:00
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Don't be too hard on yourself ol' pal. It's all magic and broomsticks to me too. Time for a martini and getting through the next episode of Downton Abbey.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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yorolpal
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 00:54:58
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Plus Noel has stayed up past his bedtime....it's after midnight in Beantown:-)
post edited by yorolpal - 2015/07/04 01:01:27
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Keni
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 02:33:32
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
yorolpal
Bingo! :-)
I guess I'm not following what your objection is to using a track send to accomplish the same thing?
A send *is* exactly the same thing as a track output, except that it has an independent gain and pan control (the send pan can be linked to the track pan)
Sending one one output to two destinations simultaneously requires the signal to be split (or two wires if you prefer to imagine it that way) so its really one and the same thing.
Hi Noel... One of the differences is that the send does not follow fader automation... As I mentioned above. So it would require duplicating the automation and maintaining any changes in both places... Or can you link the send level to the fader? Keni
post edited by Keni - 2015/07/04 02:40:52
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KPerry
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 03:07:12
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Or add a simple volume VST (BlueCat do one IIRC) and automate that rather than fader - send and output both inherit the automation from the plug-in. But you can still have an effectively different 'offset' for each output - best of both worlds.
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mudgel
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 03:58:49
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Keni
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
yorolpal
Bingo! :-)
I guess I'm not following what your objection is to using a track send to accomplish the same thing?
A send *is* exactly the same thing as a track output, except that it has an independent gain and pan control (the send pan can be linked to the track pan)
Sending one one output to two destinations simultaneously requires the signal to be split (or two wires if you prefer to imagine it that way) so its really one and the same thing.
Hi Noel...
One of the differences is that the send does not follow fader automation... As I mentioned above. So it would require duplicating the automation and maintaining any changes in both places...
Or can you link the send level to the fader?
Keni
Just so you guys know. All the programs/utilities created by our members are hosted together. We have a sticky thread with all the deatails just for this in the Software forum (where else). I've actually approached all the developers about hosting and this has been the outcome. http://forum.cakewalk.com/findpost/3238243
post edited by mudgel - 2015/07/04 04:06:26
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azslow3
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 07:27:02
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Keni
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
yorolpal
Bingo! :-)
I guess I'm not following what your objection is to using a track send to accomplish the same thing?
A send *is* exactly the same thing as a track output, except that it has an independent gain and pan control (the send pan can be linked to the track pan)
Sending one one output to two destinations simultaneously requires the signal to be split (or two wires if you prefer to imagine it that way) so its really one and the same thing.
Hi Noel...
One of the differences is that the send does not follow fader automation... As I mentioned above. So it would require duplicating the automation and maintaining any changes in both places...
Or can you link the send level to the fader?
Keni
Noob here, sorry. I can follow what Noel is writing, but I still can not understand the problem. I have created 2 buses, "D" and "E". Both goes to the master, but "D" is inverted. So, when D and E get absolutely the same input I get silence. So, one track has "Output" Bus E and "Send" to Bus D (send with default settings, post). Whatever I do with the track (add FXed, automate volume, etc) I still have silence. The only case when I hear something is when I automate pan. But that is only till I set "Follow track pan" for the send. So, my current conclusion is that according to the proposal it should do exactly that, may be lowering both outputs proportionally to the number of sends+output (since in case you simply connect 2 electrical wires to the same source, that is what going to happened). So, what I get wrong? Sorry again for my noob question.
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John T
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 07:35:52
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Keni
Hi Noel...
One of the differences is that the send does not follow fader automation... As I mentioned above. So it would require duplicating the automation and maintaining any changes in both places...
Or can you link the send level to the fader?
Keni
Yes, just make the send post-fader.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 08:13:49
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A post fader send with send gain and pan set to zero is 100% identical to a single output going to multiple buses.
I imagine DAWs that do it that way would probably implement it internally like a send. Its more visual than an actual routing difference.
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azslow3
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 08:44:01
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
A post fader send with send gain and pan set to zero is 100% identical to a single output going to multiple buses.
I imagine DAWs that do it that way would probably implement it internally like a send. Its more visual than an actual routing difference.
"Follow track pan" should be set for 100% equivalence. For me "Post" Send is "Post fader", but without "Follow" option it is still "Pre pan".
post edited by azslow3 - 2015/07/04 08:50:16
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wst3
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 11:13:12
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I'm sorta in agreement that "any in to any out", and "any out to any in" would be cool. I used to build gargantuan patchbays for studios (my own included) that provided that level of flexibility - albeit not without drawbacks, it was complex to manage, and it was possible to create some truly awful routes!!
The only software I have ever used that provided that level of flexibility was Bars & Pipes Pro for the Amiga, but it was MIDI only.
These days I lean towards it ought to be possible, but not the default behavior. It is too easy to lose track of what goes where already! I had this discussion with Ron K a long time ago - the result was that the best way to do this would be to "Add new Bus Output", leaving the current Bus Output limited to one destination. And once you have to insert a second output widget there is no real benefit over using the existing "add send" command.
The automation issue - if I am using the Post Fader setting for the send then (I think) automation is already captured.
I also think the Post Fader setting captures all the FX bins, but not the FX sends, since those do not return to the channel strip, but that's precisely why one would use a send instead of the FX bin.
So I've stopped thinking about this as a work-around. But that is just me. And now that Keni brought up the automation question I guess I need to go do some experiments... but I've yet to run into a project where it caused problems... at least that I noticed!
HOWEVER, I do use SideChain Mixer from time to time to do things I wish were native to Sonar. As an example, I still like to route delay and reverb outputs to the sidechain input of a compressor or gate. It is a strange effect, and not one you can use on every project, but it can be cool. There are others, none of which come to mind right now (need more coffee!!)
Which makes my vote something along the lines of yeah, add the capability, but don't let me select two outputs from a track too easily. And let me route tracks to tracks, and tracks to side-chain inputs, and, and, and...
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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Keni
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Re: Can we send a track to more than one bus yet??
2015/07/04 11:47:32
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
A post fader send with send gain and pan set to zero is 100% identical to a single output going to multiple buses.
I imagine DAWs that do it that way would probably implement it internally like a send. Its more visual than an actual routing difference.
Thanks Noel, John, and everyone else... I'll have to experiment with this a bit... With this new realization, I'm thinking you are correct and that it should work fine... Keni
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