Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 19:08:42
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Anderton
Adq
But if you do clone 10 or 20 repetitions without plug-ins, with 10 plug-ins on track but without properties, and finally with 10 plug-ins and with properties, the time in former case would be much more than sum of first two. That is what i see.
Interesting, that's not at all what I see:
10 or 20 repetitions without plug-ins but with properties = fastest
10 plug-ins on track but without properties = almost as fast
10 plug-ins and with properties = clearly slower
Those are the kind of results I'd expect. I'm using an i7 on a laptop, though.
I'm very sorry, not former, I mean last case. Yes, it is what I'm talking about. Why do you think it is normal behavior?
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 20:27:14
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Adq
Why do you think it is normal behavior?
If SONAR clones tracks without effects and properties, then I assume it doesn't need to capture effects/properties data and then populate the clones it's constructing with that data. Maybe what you're saying is that if it takes X amount of time to clone with effects but not properties, and Y amount of time to clone with properties but not effects, then if you clone with effects and properties then it should take X+Y amount of time. I don't know enough about computer programming to judge whether that's always the case or not. It might be more like X times Y. Maybe someone who knows code can weigh in. I did notice your processor doesn't meet the recommended minimum system requirements if you're using SONAR 2015. Maybe that has something to do with the difference? Because I use SONAR for music and video projects, if cloning 20 tracks each with 10 Breverbs took a year, I'd never find out because it's not something I would ever do. I clone tracks all the time and have never thought once that the process took too long. I'm used to computers taking some time to think...I don't begrudge them that, given how long it takes me to think  .
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 20:49:58
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Anderton
Adq
Why do you think it is normal behavior?
If SONAR clones tracks without effects and properties, then I assume it doesn't need to capture effects/properties data and then populate the clones it's constructing with that data. Maybe what you're saying is that if it takes X amount of time to clone with effects but not properties, and Y amount of time to clone with properties but not effects, then if you clone with effects and properties then it should take X+Y amount of time. I don't know enough about computer programming to judge whether that's always the case or not. It might be more like X times Y. Maybe someone who knows code can weigh in.
I did notice your processor doesn't meet the recommended minimum system requirements if you're using SONAR 2015. Maybe that has something to do with the difference?
Because I use SONAR for music and video projects, if cloning 20 tracks each with 10 Breverbs took a year, I'd never find out because it's not something I would ever do. I clone tracks all the time and have never thought once that the process took too long. I'm used to computers taking some time to think...I don't begrudge them that, given how long it takes me to think .
I doubt the difference in speed has anything to do with minimum requirements. It would just be proportionately longer. However I did ask in posts #11 and #12 for the OP to try something and it would be nice to have some feedback with this. As far as the time it should be taking.. If X = amount of time to clone with effects but not properties and Y = amount of time to clone with properties and not effects and Z = amount of time to clone with neither. Then the time it should take is X+Y-Z.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/15 21:01:25
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 21:17:29
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Anderton
If SONAR clones tracks without effects and properties, then I assume it doesn't need to capture effects/properties data and then populate the clones it's constructing with that data. Maybe what you're saying is that if it takes X amount of time to clone with effects but not properties, and Y amount of time to clone with properties but not effects, then if you clone with effects and properties then it should take X+Y amount of time. I don't know enough about computer programming to judge whether that's always the case or not. It might be more like X times Y. Maybe someone who knows code can weigh in.
Yes, it is hard to say without looking to code. But there are symptoms of disease. It just can't be more than X+Y if it is coded properly, because it is not properties of plug-ins. It is just name, in-outs, volume, pan, not so much. All effects settings, envelopes and so on are copied and without "Clone Properties". Anyway cloning must be faster in any case, you can try it in other DAW, and I bet it would be faster. One of my supposes was that it could be in some connection with mix recall, it would be nice if it could be compared with some of old Sonar version. Anderton
I did notice your processor doesn't meet the recommended minimum system requirements if you're using SONAR 2015. Maybe that has something to do with the difference?
It is coincidence, but I've already upgraded to i7 5820k. One core of Q6600 is in fact only two times slower than one core of modern CPU. Anyway, it is not about workaround for me. I just want to say that there are problems. So it is more like bug report, and want this bug to be confirmed. Anderton
I clone tracks all the time and have never thought once that the process took too long. I'm used to computers taking some time to think...I don't begrudge them that, given how long it takes me to think .
So even if it is slower than it could be, you don't care?
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 21:21:28
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Doktor Avalanche
I doubt the difference in speed has anything to do with minimum requirements. It would just be proportionately longer. However I did ask in posts #11 and #12 for the OP to try something and it would be nice to have some feedback with this.
No, it not the case, everything is fine with SSD, HDD, and so on. Doktor Avalanche
As far as the time it should be taking..
If
X = amount of time to clone with effects but not properties
and
Y = amount of time to clone with properties and not effects
and
Z = amount of time to clone with neither.
Then the time it should take is X+Y-Z.
Sorry, didn't understand this.
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 22:55:09
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Adq
So even if it is slower than it could be, you don't care?
I don't code or design SONAR, I'm a musician and voiceover/narration talent who uses it to do projects. When I clone a track, including properties and sends, with a soft synth and a couple of effects, it takes maybe 500 milliseconds. If it was 300 milliseconds my life would not be quantitatively or qualitatively better. Something practical that actually affects me would be different. If I notice something in the course of doing work that feels "slow," then I care. I don't care about something that's slow in theory (I don't clone 20 tracks with 10 Breverbs) but which I never use in practice. Benchmarks don't matter to me as long as a program does what I need/want it to do, and does so expeditiously. I know some people get all excited if they can load 152 instances of a compressor in one program compared to 132 instances in a different program, but AFAIC, in either case that's 100 compressors too many anyway
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 23:31:56
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it is not about 0.5s vs 0.3ms.
It is about X seconds vs 0 seconds.
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/15 23:44:08
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Adq
it is not about 0.5s vs 0.3ms.
It is about X seconds vs 0 seconds.
Fair enough, then let me re-phrase what I said. When I clone a track, including properties and sends, with a soft synth and a couple of effects, it takes maybe 0.5 seconds. If it was 0.0 seconds my life would not be quantitatively or qualitatively better. I just can't get upset about about the length of time it would take me to do something I would never do, e.g., clone 20 tracks of 10 reverbs. If cloning lots of tracks with lots of CPU-hungry effects is essential to the art you create, then of course it's important to you and I can understand why you would be upset. Just don't expect me to be upset.
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 00:03:48
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However..the time it takes for Windows to boot up...I do find that upsetting. But even that pales next to "Preparing to Configure Windows - Do not turn off your computer," followed by "Applying update 26 of 87,544,296. Do not turn off your computer, although this would be a good time to catch a movie."
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 00:03:58
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At Adq, you subtract Z to compensate for doing the cloning twice in the equation (X+Y) when in fact you are only doing it once. X+Y-Z is the time it SHOULD take cloning properties+effects. In simplistic terms. Sorry can't explain it any clearer than this. Also you missed my comments about arm monitoring.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/16 00:22:30
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 00:12:04
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Anderton
I just can't get upset about about the length of time it would take me to do something I would never do, e.g., clone 20 tracks of 10 reverbs. If cloning lots of tracks with lots of CPU-hungry effects is essential to the art you create, then of course it's important to you and I can understand why you would be upset. Just don't expect me to be upset.
As an i7 user you are less likely to get as upset as a core duo user. The point of the exercise might be that this functionality may create a performance spike in more common workflow (less plugins), and may not necessarily be desirable behaviour esp when triggering this during playback/record.
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 00:33:20
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Anderton
I just can't get upset about about the length of time it would take me to do something I would never do, e.g., clone 20 tracks of 10 reverbs. If cloning lots of tracks with lots of CPU-hungry effects is essential to the art you create, then of course it's important to you and I can understand why you would be upset. Just don't expect me to be upset.
Ok, but you always advocate Sonar. I just wanted to tell everybody, that I came to conclusion that if you see rotation pointer for some time after cloning, or your track template inserting is pretty long, it is more likely not because it should do some work, but because of bug. And I'm trying to prove it. Nobody denied or confirmed it yet.
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 00:35:34
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Doktor Avalanche
At Adq, you subtract Z to compensate for doing the cloning twice in the equation (X+Y) when in fact you are only doing it once. X+Y-Z is the time it SHOULD take cloning properties+effects. In simplistic terms. Sorry can't explain it any clearer than this.
Also you missed my comments about arm monitoring.
Oh, I get it, nice math :) Arm setting only affect CPU performance during playing with many audio and synth tracks. And it is turned off.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 04:37:54
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Anderton
Adq
Why do you think it is normal behavior?
If SONAR clones tracks without effects and properties, then I assume it doesn't need to capture effects/properties data and then populate the clones it's constructing with that data. this seems to imply that track properties aren't contained as a "properties collection" of the track object, and that sonar has to "parse" the track to find out what properties, if any, need cloning - that could give you your delay hth
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 08:51:34
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It is not "parsing" because
1. Any "parsing" would be much much faster.
2. You only need to do it once, and time is proportional to the number of repetitions.
So it is about setting track's plug-ins and properties after it adds new tracks.
I have some thoughts about it, but it has no much sense to guess without knowing design and code.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 09:20:50
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2. you only need to do it once if you store it somewhere, but yeah, no code access here either
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/16 16:36:55
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Adq
Anderton
I just can't get upset about about the length of time it would take me to do something I would never do, e.g., clone 20 tracks of 10 reverbs. If cloning lots of tracks with lots of CPU-hungry effects is essential to the art you create, then of course it's important to you and I can understand why you would be upset. Just don't expect me to be upset.
Ok, but you always advocate Sonar.
I don't use only SONAR. If something equivalent happened in any of the other programs I use, it wouldn't bother me either. I understand what you're saying but I know nothing about code, so I'll let you guys sort out what could account for this while I go make music.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/17 18:07:27
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There are some performance fixes in next update. Suggest OP posts again after installation.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/17 18:31:50
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What is addressed is slow loading of project templates containing many synth tracks. I am not specifically aware of a slow track template load issue. We can look into it if there is a bug report with an example.
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morganfm71
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 01:47:17
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 12:57:10
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Noel - so was arm recording monitoring during playback performance issues fixed in latest update? We had a number of threads here recently where turning this off improved performance from people complaining they had specific issues with Ipswitch . Ta..
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/18 13:09:25
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 16:39:47
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☄ Helpfulby morganfm71 2015/10/18 20:00:11
Doktor Avalanche
Noel - so was arm recording monitoring during playback performance issues fixed in latest update? We had a number of threads here recently where turning this off improved performance from people complaining they had specific issues with Ipswitch . Ta..
Is this what you're looking for? From the eZine: DYNAMIC ARM DURING PLAYBACK/RECORD Dynamic Arm for inputs now performs record pre-roll only for inputs actually present in the project, resulting in more responsive transport startup and stop when pressing play (especially for projects with synth inputs). This option also skips processing for archived tracks, saving additional CPU consumption. EXCLUDE SYNTH INPUTS FROM ALLOW ARM CHANGES In Preferences > Project > Record, checking the boxes under “Allow Arm Changes” (they default to checked) improves transport performance on start and stop with large projects containing hundreds of synth tracks. When checked, you can arm tracks only when the transport is stopped. This avoids record pre-roll overhead caused by needing to pre-create record files for synth inputs.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 19:18:44
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Crap I obviously read that and forgot... Need a RAM upgrade, and need to reset/scan my plugs.. apols... So good news here.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/18 19:28:52
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morganfm71
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 19:58:49
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Interestingly, I have “Allow Arm Changes” turned off and my track clone time is astronomical.
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Anderton
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 20:34:25
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morganfm71
Interestingly, I have “Allow Arm Changes” turned off and my track clone time is astronomical.
It doesn't affect track clone times. What I need to figure out is why I don't have long clone times...I do a lot of cloning. You seem to have a well-spec'ed system, so I assume that's not the difference.
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morganfm71
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/18 21:44:32
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Yeah. My system is very good. There must be some explanation for it. If it bothers me, I'll try to figure it out. Right now, it's not at the top of my list. Compared to the way we used to record back in the 80's and 90's...Sonar is incredible. See how long it takes to "clone" a track on a tape machine. :)
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morganfm71
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/10/19 19:51:59
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I just installed the D'yer Mak'er Plain update and my track clone times are now lightening fast.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/11/19 20:33:30
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/11/19 21:26:42
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Yeah, thank you, I'm aware of it. Waiting for release to test :)
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Adq
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Re: Slow track cloning and template inserting
2015/11/24 20:45:14
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Yes, this bug is fixed now.
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