Helpful ReplyVariances in amp sims system to system.

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Danny Danzi
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/07 16:54:13 (permalink)
batsbrew
Analog source
 
vs
 
digital source
 
 
the IR's are all just math, eh?
and listening thru different monitor/room setups,
is going to give you a very clinical, scientific look at what is going on...
 
 
on the other hand,
capturing a really rich sounding amp/cab setup with a mic, 
in a really good room,
is going to provide a 3 dimensional effect that is extremely difficult to match with just math.
 
the Kemper profiler, and the Axe FX II is the closest i've heard to getting to that 'unobtanium'...
 
but what i know, is that the 'source' sound, is more important than the IR,
and the pros that use them, know this.
 
i haven't heard the desktop bias,
sounds very intriguing...
 
but you'll notice that in all the 'comparison' videos,
the guys are using the same monitoring system for playback......
and from THEIR perspective, the differences between different IR's may be really obvious,
but as soon as you move it to a more consumer grade playback system,
the SHORTCOMINGS of the IR's may become more obvious.
 
 
my personal belief?
i can't do better than a real amp, cab, and mic.
 
 




That's a pretty good way to look at it. The other thing about IR's that is important is how they are handled once inside a sim. For example, if you try some of the cheaper plugs, you either get that fizzy type of sound or they try to simulate reverb of sorts within the cab IR in hopes to make it more real. This is where a lot of them fail. Add in a tone stack that isn't very realistic to start, and you really find yourself tweaking until you get sick.
 
You know what else I believe about sims? The dudes creating them are so young (no offense to you young, brilliant coders out there) they haven't had enough experience playing through tube amps for 20-30 years like some of us have. They *think* they are simulating tubes when in reality, they sound more transistor and synthetic.
 
The more expensive plugs give you a little more control. That's one of the things about the Kemper and the AxeFX....control. Though some of it is WAY overkill, you can literally simulate anything and even work the cab IR to control the frequencies as well as that pocket of air between a mic and cab that gives you that proper 3d sound bats is talking about.
 
As far as doing better than a real amp, cab and mic, bats? You got a killer tone doing things the way you do them so there's really no need to look elsewhere. However....I think you'd get similar results if you used an Axe Fx or something. I'd like to try and tone match one of your tones.....I bet you'd be pretty impressed lol! :) That's what I like about that thing the most so far. The ability to have all my favorite tones in one box for live or studio. But anyway...
 
My biggest issue with mics for my personal stuff is most of the time I don't have lots of time to work on my stuff and may not complete a guitar part in one sitting. So I have to break my stuff down because I have clients coming and then when I set everything up, I either get a better tone than I did before or something is missing.....even when I take pictures, write down all the settings, leave tape on the stands, on the floor....I sometimes just can't hone in on that sound that I had....or like I say, sometimes it's better than what I had. So I wind up redoing that song for consistency. I'm always close, but there's always something that I like or don't like.
 
Add in that I like my direct, simulated, tone as much as my mic'd tone and it doesn't really matter. They sound so close it's not even worth me fighting with myself. LOL! Heck man, I've even left my mic'd rig up overnight and played the next day and it STILL sounded a little different from what I did the night before. Darned gremlins! So for me, I have to finish a song completely that night or the mic'd cab thing drives me mental. Hahaha! I think using both works the best for me when I have to really get down and dirty with recording my stuff. The best of both worlds...it's a no lose situation. :)
 
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2016/01/07 17:07:42

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michaelhanson
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/08 11:24:42 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
 The best of both worlds...it's a no lose situation. :)
 
-Danny




Thanks it, exactly for me.  
 
If I have the time to mic....I'm all for it.  However, I am getting a VERY usable tone out of some of the sims.  Enough so, that I am often asked what I used for my tone, the person asking, thinking that it is a real amp.  Most if not all, are guitar players.  The casual listener, doesn't have a clue.  

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/10 16:39:01 (permalink)
I believe something like this is what Danny was referring to in post #24
The ART TUBE MB (I couldn't find a LIne 6 tube preamp.)
Some people are putting these in the effects loop between the amp and cab of their modeler and reporting great results.
I may give that a spin sometime. I'm happy now, but I don't mind being happier.
(update: Just bought one at reverb.com. I'll post my findings when I get it in.)
post edited by clintmartin - 2016/01/10 21:12:29

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/11 15:43:54 (permalink)
I've got an ART TUBE Pre, Clint.  I guess in the case of Amplitube, you would put it between your guitar and sound card, as a tube DI?  That may be an interesting experiment.  

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/11 16:30:09 (permalink)
all that particular device is going to do,
is raise the noise floor,
and add some harmonic distortion.

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/11 16:46:22 (permalink)
We'll see. I bought one for $25 so I can sell it easy enough. I love experimenting with things. I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting anyway. In my case this would only be for recording direct with a modeler or amp sim. I use the DT25 tube amp when playing live. I'm not sure how it would work with a sim, as the tube would be before the preamp. With the POD you can insert it in between the preamp and modeled power amp and cab using the effects loop. I'll experiment when I get it and see if it makes a difference either way. When things settle down I may get the Fractal AX8. These retail for $1399, but there is a long line. I've seen two on ebay that sold for $2500. Now that's just stupid. You can buy a new AxeFX II MK+ for $2250.

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/14 08:15:24 (permalink)
So... a few days ago I was playing with some sims and had a pretty decent (to my ears) tone dialed in on a few of the sims so....I saved them as presets.
 
Fast forward to the present. Well a few days after saving the presets. I needed to lay down a track with some distortion guitar.....so, drop in an audio track, load the sim, pull up a preset.... and....  wait... I don't remember this thing sounding like that!!!   Twiddle the knobs, tweeze the settings..... nope..... hummmm... try a different preset..... same deal.... mess around trying to dial them in...... check the POD to see that it's on the clean preamp..... yep....  mess around for some more time...... nope.... nothing is sounding like I'm hearing it in my head.....
 
SO.......
 
Bypass the sim, switch the POD to the Blackface setting.... adjust gain and output volume..... WAAAA LAAAA... there it is.... the sound I needed.... not to clean, but not too distorted and with a clean verb behind it.
 
That's why I prefer the hardware based solutions from the POD or the Mesa with a mic.
 
I'm not giving up on the sims, because I liked the sound I was getting several days previous, but it just didn't seem to work in the context of the song I was working on.

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/15 09:28:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jbow 2016/01/19 13:24:27
Herb,
 
One of the things to watch for on the Sims is your input signal.  Make sure that your getting a strong signal but not clipping.  That seems to very from amp model to amp model; how strong your pickups are and adjustment to the input on your sound card.  
 
Switching guitars, with totally different pickups, can change your tone quite a bit as well.  A high out humbucker is going to drive the Sim differently than a lower output humbucker.  If you are picking up the same guitar, same input level on your sound card and using the same preset, your tone shouldn't really change much, though.
 
I have kind of figured out 3-4 amp models that I like and use most of the time.  Then I have learned to dial them in to the song I am recording.  One of the biggest issues for me is that there are SO many choices with Sims, that I could spend all day tweaking them.  Just sticking with a couple of amp models seams to make me more productive.   
 
Eventually, you kind of learn to tweak the Sim like you would an amp....though I think a real amp/hardware, is still simpler to tweak your tone out of.  
 
 

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/15 13:46:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jbow 2016/01/18 21:30:15
michaelhanson
Herb,
 
One of the things to watch for on the Sims is your input signal.  Make sure that your getting a strong signal but not clipping.  That seems to very from amp model to amp model; how strong your pickups are and adjustment to the input on your sound card.  
 



That there is the key. For example, when you plug into an amp or even a hardware guitar pre, the input is buffered...meaning pushed a little. This changes the game dramatically and where *most* of the problems come from. There is no way to do this with a sim unless there is hardware that literally pushes the input stage of the sound.
 
The other thing to consider.....being in the guitar plug side for many years with a few companies, there are more bad guitar sims than good ones. They are so easy to make, a homeless dude that knows some code can whip up a plug, throw out a few ads that get seen by the right people, and the next thing you know, he sells 50,000 copies for $25 and he's not homeless anymore. How can you not try something with a good ad that's $25? Heck, drop that to $19.95 and that 50,000 copies thing may have just went up to 250,000....times $19.95.
 
So the quality you are getting is quite bad in some of these. Now, I seem to mention this about two times per year....so I'll mention it for the first time here again for the new people that may have joined us. Because most guitar sim programs do not give you a buffered signal going in before it even hits the plug tone stack, they are going to fall short. Let's assume that the plug we are working with today is a good one like say, Guitar Rig.
 
The first thing I do when I work with ANY plug, is to put something first in my signal chain that boosts the signal a little. Let me tell you what this fixes....
 
The first thing before we even go here though....you need a nice DI signal. Whether you go into a console or have some sort of pre or whatever into a DI or whatever you use, it has to be a good, strong, clean signal if at all possible. We can dirty it up later...but we have to start with the good stuff in the front end.
 
Keep in mind, this can be a POD set for DI with all the settings bypassed, another guitar pre-amp where you can bypass the entire unit as long as it has DI capability, dedicated Direct Boxes (which is what "DI" stands for) your interface.....whatever can get you a good signal going into the computer. Ok....moving on...
 
Ever notice these guitar sims have loads of gain, but very little sustain? Those that don't know the difference.....sustain is what allows your notes to hold out longer. This helps you to play using legato techniques as well as making for a smoother playing experience. In a hardware device, upping the gain gives you more sustain just about always. Not so for the sim plugs. You can crank the heck out of the gain and get a killer sound...but it will die out in 2 seconds.
 
The fix for this is of course a buffered input...which we don't have, so we have to sort of make one. I like to use compressors or a drive stomp box because of a few reasons. I'll explain...
 
Compression at this stage of the gain gives us a conditioned signal going into the computer/interface/sim plug. The good thing about this is, you can really get some nice sustain effects from this....but you HAVE TO have the right compressor to do this, and you'll of course need to know how to use it. Once you get the compression setting right, you open up the output a little on the compressor.
 
When you add in the sim plug and set your amount of distortion, you'll most likely start to hear some hiss unless the plug has a good gate. Even there, if you ever use a gate to the point of where it chokes off your sound and the sound dies off too fast, you are using too much gain and too much gate. It shouldn't work that way. But anyway, at this point...if the noise is hot, you back the compressor output down until the noise goes away. This along with the gain int he plug should get you some really good results as long as the plug is a good representation of what guitar tone really is.
 
Next, a simple drive stomp box. I say drive because we don't want loads of gain here. A drive/overdrive or even a Tube Screamer or Boss Compressor Sustainer can give awesome results here. The key is to not use any of the gain on the pedal at first and jack up the output knob. Same thing as the other example....lower it as soon as you get hiss. Now if you happen to need a little gain boost, you CAN turn the gain on the pedal up a little...but I've never had to do this. The output has been enough for me while using the Boss I mentioned and a Tube Screamer. (not at the same time of course lol)
 
I also recommend having any tone knobs on the pedals set for up the middle at 12 o'clock for starters. If you happen to need any of that coloration you can add it or take it away....but start up the middle.
 
You can also use tube pre-amps or any other signal boosting device. There's no way to determine what will work or what won't until you try a few things. For me so far....these are all the things I've tried to where I've been successful with good sounding plug sims.
 
Compressors: Hardware, pedals, comps built into pre-amps like a POD where everything on the POD was bypassed other than the compressor, and I've even used my 2101 (it has lo-Z outs and works as a great DI with everything bypassed) with a little compression that was in a patch while bypassing everything else.
 
Pedals: Ibanez Tube Screamer, Boss Compressor Sustainer, Boss Over-drive, Distortion (this one was a bit edgy but it worked), and a Turbo Overdrive.
 
Consoles: I've even pushed my console pre-amps a bit while using effects in-line while going into the computer with great results. My current Midas M-32 has an awesome front end that gives me some really great stuff for pre-sim processing.
 
So in my personal opinion, we always need a little something to make these things sound closer to a real guitar sound. It's also been my experience that the only cheap plug that has ever given me a good sound was the Acme Bar Gig stuff. I honestly don't say that because I worked for them....they really did give me a killer plug for free with the first versions of Shred. Other than that, the name brand stuff has been the best for me when I've had to use sims. Hope some of this helps. :)
 
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2016/01/15 14:05:55

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/15 13:55:00 (permalink)
Good read there Danny.
 
I will continue to experiment with the sim.  I have Guitar Rig and the POD2 which has a clean preamp and a compressor...so I shall use the compressor and continue my journey to enlightenment in the Zen of sims.

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/16 12:38:28 (permalink)
I've been testing the tube pre this morning with the HD500X. I used Mautodynamiceq to do some freq analysis with it. In the FX loop it adds some low end and mids. Post cab it seems to add low end and cut the mids. Overall to my ear the HD500X sounds better without it.
Next up, I'll test it with S-Gear. 

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/16 15:09:01 (permalink)
That doesn't surprise me Clint. The pod has a buffered input and is a piece of hardware so this is why it reacts so much better and actually sounds muddy or not quite right when you use the tube preamp. It's probably going to sound good when you use it with S Gear, but sometimes preamps actually affect guitar sims in a bad way. Try using a stomp box into a guitar sim like some of the stuff I mentioned above and I bet you you'll get some pretty good results that way. Or a tube compressor....they really do a nice job too but most people don't have a Drawer or equivalent laying around. Lol!
 
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/16 17:02:05 (permalink)
Yeah, I suspect it may sound better with S-Gear too. It adds low end which the HD500X suffers from already. I have to use the deep cab parameters to roll off the lows. The pre just adds them back in.
As I said I like them already...so this is just a little test I can afford to do at $25, and it may sound good with my cheap mic I use for vocals.
Did you watch the Helix demo Pete Thorn did? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQUmE0TfC4I
It looks like a nice piece, but for the money I would rather have the Fractal AX8.
 
post edited by clintmartin - 2016/01/16 17:15:05

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/19 13:31:41 (permalink)
michaelhanson
Herb,
 
One of the things to watch for on the Sims is your input signal.  Make sure that your getting a strong signal but not clipping.  That seems to very from amp model to amp model; how strong your pickups are and adjustment to the input on your sound card.  
 
Switching guitars, with totally different pickups, can change your tone quite a bit as well.  A high out humbucker is going to drive the Sim differently than a lower output humbucker.  If you are picking up the same guitar, same input level on your sound card and using the same preset, your tone shouldn't really change much, though.
 
I have kind of figured out 3-4 amp models that I like and use most of the time.  Then I have learned to dial them in to the song I am recording.  One of the biggest issues for me is that there are SO many choices with Sims, that I could spend all day tweaking them.  Just sticking with a couple of amp models seams to make me more productive.   
 
Eventually, you kind of learn to tweak the Sim like you would an amp....though I think a real amp/hardware, is still simpler to tweak your tone out of.  
 
 


You and Danny make a lot of sense.
With most (all but one) amps I always put a pedal in front. Usually a couple, a Tech21 Comp-tortion. It has a 21db clean boost and if you add just a little of the compression side, it makes a huge difference. Also the SD Pickup Booster but you have less control with it. The Boss Bass EQ pedal works wonders with the low end on Fender type amps and has a boost, just keep everything flat and boost a little, I usually use some combination of those three and a Jordan J-700. Usually only two pedals though.
It makes sense that running through them into my interface, into TH3 or Amplitude would make a good difference too, I just never thought of it. Plugins have a way of making you think they are all you need. (At least in my case, lol). This is a very helpful thread, thanks to all.
I have the C-T and the PB pedals out to try this afternoon.
 
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/19 13:39:02 (permalink)
+1, I have taken to dropping a compression/EQ set in place prior to an amp sim. It tends to give more consistency for what is feeding into the amp sim than trying to tailor it for each amp sim preset (which turns into more overhead than necessary).

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/19 17:44:38 (permalink)
MJUC is a good VST comp to use with a sim I think. It has some of that analog mojo that helps a bit.

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/01/19 17:44:38 (permalink)
double post. 
post edited by clintmartin - 2016/01/19 17:58:10

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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/01 19:03:20 (permalink)
Danny, Herb, anyone... sorry to bring back a three week old thread but It's been on my mind. So...
 
I got out my old Alesis NanoCompressor (and NonoVerb). I'm wondering if the NanoCompressor will fill the bill to push the Amp Sims a little, in a good way or if I should just use a clean boost. (I have that on several guitar pedals.) I don't have a DI box. I know not the NanoVerb but since I got one out, I got them both out. I read the manual for the NC and am thinking it might do nicely but am not sure. In any case, I should use these more. I don't have much hardware.... and I DO NOT need to get started on 500s, lol.
Thanks,
Julien

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#48
batsbrew
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/02 10:28:14 (permalink)
don't use the nano...
that is a bottom of the barrel device at best,
old technology,
what you want is the cleanest of boost.
 

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#49
jbow
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/02 13:44:34 (permalink)
batsbrew
don't use the nano...
that is a bottom of the barrel device at best,
old technology,
what you want is the cleanest of boost.
 


Thanks. Advice taken.
It's been a closet dweller for quite a while, lol. I'll use a clean boost from one of my guitar pedals, that is easier too!
 
J

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#50
Danny Danzi
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/02 13:46:13 (permalink)
jbow
Danny, Herb, anyone... sorry to bring back a three week old thread but It's been on my mind. So...
 
I got out my old Alesis NanoCompressor (and NonoVerb). I'm wondering if the NanoCompressor will fill the bill to push the Amp Sims a little, in a good way or if I should just use a clean boost. (I have that on several guitar pedals.) I don't have a DI box. I know not the NanoVerb but since I got one out, I got them both out. I read the manual for the NC and am thinking it might do nicely but am not sure. In any case, I should use these more. I don't have much hardware.... and I DO NOT need to get started on 500s, lol.
Thanks,
Julien




It won't hurt to try it since you have it. Just watch for any noise or hiss you may get out of it. I mean, realistically, you will get a little, but just make sure it's not crazy.
 
See, one of the cool things about real amps is how they process the signal a bit before it hits the amp tone stack. A little compression is one of the things some buffered input signals generate. That is exactly what you'd be doing here. The more you comp the sound, the more consistent the tone will be.
 
However, you may also sacrifice dynamics within the amp sim. A good compressor set just right can give you amazing results. This is why Bats is against the old technology. There is definite merit in what he's telling you. BUT....sometimes you just need a little comp and a little push and the old technology may actually be helpful in how it degrades the sound in a good way. You never know until you try.
 
For example, let me share something with you that may open up a few ideas for you. You've heard me mention how the buffered input signal can have an impact. Now let's think about tubes for a second and why people love them so much. When you strike a string, the tube works on chopping off that high end transient, thus "warming" things up" like we like to say.
Pinch harmonics like what you may hear from Eddie Van Halen, are those tubes just chiming in and helping with the tonal characteristics. When we add things in line BEFORE our amp sims, we are sort of simulating that. We can't expect the sim to behave like a tube amp because it doesn't know how to nor does it have the code for "spontaneity" written inside. Like for example, tubes don't just sit there and glow...they literally help the tone due to how they react with the signal. This warming up, or....compression saturation, is what we need from the sims we use that isn't there.
 
So you CAN use a tube pre in line, you can use a compressor of your choosing, you can use a pedal that gives you a boost...and heck, you can create an entire front end of stuff if need be to really get some interesting results. So don't be afraid to experiment. That old dinosaur piece you may have lying around just may give you something cool to work with. When you know you've exhausted what it can do and you're still not happy, you know that particular piece may not be the right one. :) Hope this helps!
 
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2016/02/02 13:59:43

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#51
batsbrew
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/02 14:20:38 (permalink)
i could see how a comp, set just right,
would actually let you milk a little more out of the sim...
 
assuming, that the 'dynamics' you get out of the comp, are in line with what you are doing with the sim..
 
case in point:
 
if you are using high gain models, the characteristic of the sustain, dynamic attack, and bite, or lack of, is part of the natural compression that occurs in real tube amps..
both at the preamp stage, and the output stage.
 
in other words, those amps that were modeled, are more than likely already very compressed, naturally...
 
adding a compressor to the clean tone going in, might just make the modeled tube amp distortion sound a bit 'homogenous'

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#52
tlw
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/02 20:27:53 (permalink)
The nanocomp is best avoided. It's noisy and is really intended to deal with line levels not guitar signals.

A pretty good and not too obviously "DynaComp squish" guitar pedal compressor is the Pigtronix Philosopher's Tone. Just don't set the blend or compression too high and be wary of the "grit" control that adds an unusual kind of hazy distortion. Works well on bass too.

My personal approach nowadays is to use a mix of pedals that I think need to be before the amp feeding a real amplifier set to the kind of volume where it works properly then feed that into a Palmer speaker DI and load box, so no speaker or mic involved and repeatable consistency. Eq and other processing added afterwards in the box Not quite the same as a real cab in the room with you, but then neither is a cab recorded through a mic when the recording is played back.

Pinch harmonics, feedback and huge sustain are quite possible at very domestic levels monitoring through a pair of nearfields. Plus the advantage the sims give you of being able to tempo match delays, modulation etc.

I've also tracked via both the Palmer DI box and a mic+cab at times when dealing with someone who wants to use their cab and have it mic'd. The Palmer track often ends up coming in very useful because it avoids the various problems of getting the same sound onto disk when recording involves more than one session.

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#53
jbow
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/05 07:14:01 (permalink)
Thanks everyone. I may give it a try but will probably steer towards the Comp-Tortion (with no Tortion and just a wee bit O'compression). IT has a good clean boost and in low doses the compression is nice on a guitar. The SD Pickup Booster seems to add a bit too much from the get go. The Boss EQ pedals might be fun to try starting flat with just a little boost, then tweak a little, might be fun. I think I'm going to have time to play with it today on something.
Thanks again, looking forward to it and sorta excited about it.
J

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#54
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/05 11:43:55 (permalink)
Very interesting stuff here guys and I appreciate all these great tips you all provide. This thread got me thinking a bit on getting a better signal path.....
 
I've been plugging my guitar directly into my Focusrite interface and then using the software amp sims for recording.
Regarding using a DI box.....I have a POD2.0 as well as a Digitech RP12 (in storage).....can I/should I use one of these to improve my signal path/sound?

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#55
tlw
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Re: Variances in amp sims system to system. 2016/02/05 13:25:59 (permalink)
So long as the guitar is plugged into an input with a very high impedance, around 1MOhm or higher, a DI box will make little if any difference other than possibly reducing noise if the alternative is a guitar lead over around 15 feet in length. Guitars need to see a very high impedance or they lose volume and treble. This is why some effects with poorly designed bypass systems which only disconnect the effect output but leave the effect circuit input permanently connected to the guitar are notorious for "tone sucking". The original Cry Baby was the classic example of this, or many MXR pedals or older EHX stuff.

Guitar leads with a high self-capacitance can also cause a loss of top and volume - http://www.premierguitar....w_to_Choose_a_14_Cable

A pedal with a permanently on high impedance buffer at the input and a low impedance output can be very useful as the first thing the guitar sees (but put after things like the Fuzz Face which need to see the guitar pickups and pots directly to work properly). That will usually prevent or at least reduce loss of treble/volume caused by less than ideal bypasses in subsequent pedals. Any Boss pedal, including tuners, has a good buffer built in, as do pedals made by quite a lot of other manufacturers nowadays. The downside of buffers is that you usually don't want too many of them in a row or their accumulated effect will change the tone. A couple of buffers are fine, a dozen or so maybe not so good.

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