Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out.

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msorrels
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/04 15:55:03 (permalink)
Just for grins I loaded up X3e (still installed) and it has the same crazy behavior with the top menu Insert Synth (not letting it change the layout) and the grayed Insert Synth in the Synth Rack that Sonar Platinum Manchester does.  So it's not a "version" of Sonar problem, it's all Sonar's.
 

-Matt
 
#31
Paul P
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/04 18:52:35 (permalink)
msorrels
Just for grins I loaded up X3e (still installed) and it has the same crazy behavior with the top menu Insert Synth (not letting it change the layout) and the grayed Insert Synth in the Synth Rack that Sonar Platinum Manchester does.  So it's not a "version" of Sonar problem, it's all Sonar's.



Which to me means some setting or corruption in a settings or preset file, something that gets migrated forward (and back, in this case).
 
Do you have a lot of important stuff you'd lose if you wiped Sonar (only Sonar) off your system and started fresh ?
 

Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
#32
msorrels
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 02:33:15 (permalink)
Paul P
Do you have a lot of important stuff you'd lose if you wiped Sonar (only Sonar) off your system and started fresh ?

 
It's hard to say how big a deal uninstalling and removing all the Cakewalk products I have would be.  I'd have to take extra care to make sure I keep all the various bits from X1, X2, X3 that aren't in the current Sonar.  I think it's doable, but it is a lot of work.  My fear is I'd do all that and still have the problem.  Though it might actually be nice to clean things up.  My system does a full backup every week Friday night/Saturday morning.  Perhaps I'll give it a try this weekend after the full snapshot. 
 
I just wish someone at Cakewalk would answer the question of exactly how (as in what the code does) does the Synth Rack's Insert Synth menu get populated/displayed.  There must be code/a reason that it is gray for some of us.  Someone with the Sonar source code should be able to answer that question in a few minutes.  But despite repeated requests Cakewalk support never would get an answer or even look into this.

-Matt
 
#33
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 02:56:54 (permalink)
I'd be reluctant to wipe Sonar and start again because I have a hunch that all of this may be to do with something with Sonar's scanning of plugins and if that is related to one-or-more specific plugs (3rd party or CW) then it's not just Sonar that needs to be wiped and reinstalled. Just a thought, though, for which I have no evidence whatsoever.
#34
pwalpwal
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 04:36:38 (permalink)
if it's to do with the plugin scanning, the (long-winded) way to troubleshoot then is to:
  • rename your vst folder & rescan/reset in sonar
  • create a new folder with same name as before (same as original vst folder)
in the new folder (must be in sonar's scan path)
  1. add a plugin from the original vst folder
  2. launch sonar, rescan plugins, then check the synth rack for greyed-out-ness
  3. if ok, close sonar, go to step 1 and repeat
  4. if not ok, that last plugin is (one of) the cause(s), so remove it and rescan, go to step 1
repeat until you've re-added  all your plugs - long-winded, but surely quicker than blanket un-installing/re-installing everything...
 
hth, good luck!
 

just a sec

#35
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 04:52:41 (permalink)
Paul #29: I admire your persistence on this one! I don't know whether I'm fully understanding what you are saying in #29, but I don't seem to get the same results as you. Whether the button is left blue or not seems to make no difference. I have found only two ways of reliably blowing up Synth Rack: selecting "default" layout in Browser Synth tab (i.e. Synth Rack): or selecting "default" via (main menu) Insert - Soft Synth. Oddly, in the latter case, the main menu is happy to be set to "default" (i.e. it works fine and can later be reset to a specific layout) but the collateral damage is that Synth Rack is then crippled until I go to regedit and fix the blank key.
 
I have already filed a bug report (although I don't have much hope that this is persuasive of the Bakers - I'm guessing it needs at least fifty bug reports on a topic before they take it seriously).
#36
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 04:54:55 (permalink)
msorrels
 
It's hard to say how big a deal uninstalling and removing all the Cakewalk products I have would be.  I'd have to take extra care to make sure I keep all the various bits from X1, X2, X3 that aren't in the current Sonar.  I think it's doable, but it is a lot of work.  My fear is I'd do all that and still have the problem.
 
I just wish someone at Cakewalk would answer the question of exactly how (as in what the code does) does the Synth Rack's Insert Synth menu get populated/displayed.  There must be code/a reason that it is gray for some of us.  Someone with the Sonar source code should be able to answer that question in a few minutes.  But despite repeated requests Cakewalk support never would get an answer or even look into this.


 I share both of your concerns.
#37
msorrels
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 05:39:22 (permalink)
Okay, so in the past when looking at this I'd reset my VSTs in the Plugin Manager and then have it rescan.  Doing this, I'd never get my insert synth option back, but I never did it a single path directory at a time.  I have 5-6 directories in my VST scan list (VST3, Cakewalk dirs, my VST2 32-bit dir and my VST2 64-bit dir).  So I wiped my VST inventory registry and had nothing in my VST scan list and started Sonar up.  It found 22 plugins, all DirectX, and my insert synth menu item was back! 
 
I then started to add one directory at a time and rescan.  I put the Cakewalk dirs back, no problem.  I put the VST3 dirs back.  No problem.  I added my VST2 64-bit directory.  During the scan one plugin crashed, Tunefish64.  Some free synth I think.  I just moved it out into my Bad VST holding dir, don't think it had anything to do with this.  Re-did the scan and my Insert Synth menu item was gone!  So I've narrowed it down to one of my VST2 64 bit plugins.  A file search for *.dll on that directory says 671 DLLs, one or more of which is the problem, or perhaps it's just the sheer number of them. 
 
I'm pretty sure I can turn off the rescan on startup option and then just chop parts of the VST Inventory out of the registry in order to narrow this down.  But it's going to take some time.  And it still just may be the total number or it might have something to do with the path.  I do notice some issues in Procmon (a Windows Developer tool) when Sonar reads the registry complaining about the entries being too long.  My plugin dir has a number of sub-directories, which makes for some long entries in the VST inventory.
 
I may have some time this weekend to see if I can narrow this down some more.  Considering how little this bug effects me I've certainly spent a lot of time on it though.

-Matt
 
#38
msorrels
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 07:05:01 (permalink)
So it wasn't as hard to narrow down as I thought.  It's not a specific plugin, but rather the total.  I believe I've worked out a way anyone with 64 bit Platinum can reproduce this.  Though I'll warn you this requires fiddling your registry and shouldn't be attempted unless you are fairly computer fluent.
 
First get this Zip with exports of my VST Inventory (zip also contains a screenshot of what this bug looks like and a copy of these instructions).
 
http://www.pontari.com/sonar/InsertSynthBug.zip
 
How to reproduce using Sonar Platinum 64 bit.

First start Sonar and in Preferences under File->VST Settings set the Scan Options to Manual Scan
This way Sonar will use the registry you are going to import from my computer to reproduce the bug.

Start Window Regedit
Goto HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Cakewalk Music Software\SONAR\Cakewalk VST X64\Inventory

Export that branch to a file on your computer (so you can restore your settings)

Delete the Inventory key

Now import the file "VSTInventory-BAD_1217 entries.reg"
This has 1217 VST Inventory entries (but I'm not sure how many actual plugins that maps too, which may be the real issue).

Start Sonar.  Make a new project
Open the browser, go to the synth tab, click on the + sign to insert a synth.  Your insert synth option should be grayed out.  See included screenshot.

Exit Sonar.

Delete the Inventory Key and now import the other file included in the zip
"VSTInventory-GOOD_1216 entries.reg" it has exactly one less plugin

Restart Sonar and go to the insert synth tab.  Notice the insert menu now works.

To restore your version of Sonar, exit, and once again delete the Inventory and reimport the version you exported at the start.
 

-Matt
 
#39
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 07:26:11 (permalink)
Matt, I don't doubt your sincerity nor your findings, but it would be a braver soul than me who would download registry entries and then insert them into their own registry. Sorry. I suggest you take the contents of your post and convert it into a bug report and let the Bakers have it with your .reg files and see what they make of it.
#40
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 09:13:36 (permalink)
I completely agree with Christopher.
 
I'm not convinced my registry is in the best of health at any time, so whilst it still works, it ain't getting diddled with!

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#41
msorrels
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 10:15:19 (permalink)
.reg files are plain text you can visibly check everything it's doing in notepad.  But I also understand not wanting to take any risk to verify this.  The information is here, Cakewalk is welcome to use it.  But I won't be reporting anything to their support, they burned that bridge on this very issue.
 
post edited by msorrels - 2016/02/05 10:28:52

-Matt
 
#42
Paul P
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/05 11:50:10 (permalink)
ChristopherM
I have found only two ways of reliably blowing up Synth Rack: selecting "default" layout in Browser Synth tab (i.e. Synth Rack): or selecting "default" via (main menu) Insert - Soft Synth. Oddly, in the latter case, the main menu is happy to be set to "default" (i.e. it works fine and can later be reset to a specific layout) but the collateral damage is that Synth Rack is then crippled until I go to regedit and fix the blank key.



Your problem probably has something to do with the default layout itself, as I'm sure you've concluded.  In my experiments, I only used layouts that I had previously created, so only fixed layouts that don't undergo any kind of change.  I never selected the "Default All Plugins" of which I have two that always appear.  Well, I did at the beginning until I realized that it wasn't obvious what their purpose or behaviour was.  One of them gives me VST2 and VST3 categories, the other only VST2, but there's only one default.pgl.tmp.  The default layout appears to be continuously rebuilt upon opening Sonar, as is shown by the default.pgl.tmp's modification date.
 
I spent no time looking into the behaviour of this default layout processing.
 

Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
#43
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/02/06 07:59:51 (permalink)
I'm wondering whether I have one particular plug-in that somehow prevents Sonar from creating the default on the fly and that Sonar's code is not robust enough to take such a thing in its stride ... but wondering is as far as I am going to take it, because I just don't have the time to spend finding the rogue by any process of elimination, especially since there may be more than one rogue.
#44
dgrace
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 00:35:38 (permalink)
I am now getting this problem in the latest version of SONAR (22.4.0 Build 27 [2016.04] - x64) where the "Insert Synth" button in the Synth Rack Browser is "greyed out" and cannot be activated (i.e., the "Insert Synth" button after you click the “+” button in the Synth tab of the Browser).  Did you guys ever figure out the cause and resolution to this problem.  I have used this method for inserting VIs for many years and have never seen this problem before now.
#45
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 02:58:28 (permalink)
I regret to say that I have not found any way to fix this other than to go into the registry via regedit and fix the corrupt keys. The fix lasts only for so long before Sonar corrupts the keys again, so this is not a practical solution. The Problem Report CWBRN-45498 that I made at the beginning of February still says -

Status Information

The current status of your report is
New
This is a new problem report. It has not yet been reviewed by Cakewalk.
 
This makes me wonder what Cakewalk actually does with Problem Reports if after nearly 4 months no-one has even looked at it. None of the other methods for inserting a soft synth is particularly workable either. The newish Add Track thing looked promising but its bizarre way of ordering the list (without the ability to use Layouts) makes it unattractive, too.
 
I don't feel well supported by the Bakers here, I'm sorry to say.
#46
msorrels
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 06:27:53 (permalink)
It's not a specific entry, it's the total number of entries.  And yes Cakewalk has totally dropped the ball on this.  I won't submit any more bug reports to them because of the nonsense responses this bug has gotten from their front line support.
 

-Matt
 
#47
dcumpian
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 08:44:08 (permalink)
I wonder why the keys are getting corrupted in your cases? I have never seen this behavior and it makes me wonder if there is an antivirus that is intercepting Sonar's write to the registry and corrupting it?
 
Regards,
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
My music:
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#48
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 10:06:12 (permalink)
The only AV that I use is Windows Defender and I have no experience of that messing up anything. I don't think that anything is intercepting Sonar's writes - I think Sonar is screwing it up all by itself. As I said above, I wouldn't be surprised if this is to do with one-or-more rogue plugs, but unless Sonar says what's happening, there is no practical way to find out.
 
#49
dcumpian
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 14:24:12 (permalink)
Windows Defender probably isn't the cause...so I agree with your point. It is strange that it isn't more common. I have well over 600 plugins and use a custom layout.
 
Regards,
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
My music:
http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
#50
davec69
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/25 16:45:19 (permalink)
I noticed that this has started happening on my system.   On random occasions, after pressing the + sign to insert a synth, the "Insert Synth" will be greyed out.   Happened just now on my system.   Tried:
 
1.  Closing project and re-opening - Still greyed out.
2.  Close Sonar and reopen same project - "Insert Synth" now available.
 
 

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#51
ChristopherM
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2016/05/26 07:48:49 (permalink)
Well, I 'm sorry to hear that Davec, but perhaps if anyone experiencing this bangs in a Problem Report, the Bakers may read one of them and take some action. [hope triumphing over experience again]
#52
peter ross
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Re: Browser Synth Rack: Insert Synth ... greyed out. 2018/05/01 20:14:27 (permalink)
In my updated version of Sonar Platinum the synth rack can't be accessed like it used to with the big + and - buttons. I would like to add some Native Instrument synth software but can't find it in my DAW or install it into the program. Could some one kindly tell me what my efforts of several hours cannot solve?  Or has this question already been answered.  Basically I'd like to add a new plugin!
Thanks
#53
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