2:43AM
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Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I have a 30/70 chance of having crazy crashes and/or plugin problems when opening projects that are pre-Platinum (i.e. X2a and X3e) in Platinum. • I just had a crazy crash where Vintage Verb "lost" its license key, the project came up blank (i.e. no tracks), and when closed/quit, the Sonar main window closed but kept a fast-flashing phantom window over the desktop with the CPU pegged at 100%. WTH? • Other projects from X2 and X3 can have nasty lockups caused by 32/64-bit plugins used over the years. It seems, however, that iZotope (64-bit only) plugins don't play nice between Sonar versions, as I sometimes will get Alloy 2 crashes. • Another problem I've experienced is sporadic behavior when moving clips in the Track View. Creating a new project and copying the clips over from the old project to the new project alleviates the problem. • Another is VST3 botch-ups. I experienced some crazy MEGA-lag issue with a Waldorf Largo instance in a particular project. It would load fine and play fine at first, but when would "lag out" big time, causing massive CPU spikes and delayed audio. Even manipulating the control knobs was lagged. Deleting the VST and inserting a new one would alleviate the issue. I don't get it. If anything, new versions of Sonar need to NOT introduce these kinds of incompatibilities because they are hard to troubleshoot and remedy. I am too haphazard to confirm every single bug down to a single or multiple culprit(s). My creativity is already going nowhere, so I can't waste my time troubleshooting incompatibilities. If all I did was mix other people's audio, then I think I'd be in heaven. But lately, trying to create music has just been a HUGE mess.
post edited by 2:43AM - February 19, 16 12:16 AM
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sharke
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 19, 16 2:11 PM
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I've often said that the longer you work on projects in Sonar, the more chance they have of developing oddities and instability. I've had projects from X1 and X2 which have developed so much weird stuff that I've simply abandoned them and recreated them from scratch (which actually turned out for the best). However I still have a few old projects which are large and cumbersome which I tinker with from time to time but wouldn't want to start the mammoth task of rebuilding, and they can be a PITA stability wise.
post edited by sharke - February 19, 16 2:25 PM
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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deswind
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 19, 16 2:38 PM
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I have 8.5.3 bundle files that open up in Platinum. I sometimes have to disable old plugs that were not 64 bit ready. I have not had a problem in this area and nothing that I would attribute to Cakewalk.
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Zargg
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 19, 16 3:29 PM
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Hi. I have during the past month or so opened and worked with several projects that were created as early as in SONAR XL2.2, and have had no problems besides removing old (missing) 32 bit plugins. When I open projects that old, I remove every plugin / synth I no longer have or that are 32bit and save as new. And they work as they should... Sorry to not be of any help.
All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 19, 16 3:50 PM
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The only projects I have any problems with have been unstable all the way back to X1, so I don't blame Platinum per se, but the vast majority of projects open & play fine, missing plugins aside
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MBGantt
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 19, 16 3:58 PM
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I had two this week that I had not worked on in several months (big projects with huge track numbers) that Kontakt wouldn't work right in. Kontakt kept crashing the start up so that I had to open in safe mode and allow each instance of a synth to completely open before saying yes to the next. Then once the project finally opened none of the instances with Adagio Strings would work. Even the screen on Kontakt was all messed up for them. Then instances of Kontakt with instruments from other companies would play the wrong sounds! Strings were drum kits and so on! If I inserted a new instance everything worked fine but anything old was messed up. I am having to rebuild the thing from the ground up. I have never seen anything like this before this week.
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mettelus
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 3:57 AM
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I have seen the "VST un-registering" issue on a couple plugins, but not in this version. I am trying to remember if this was before or after I did a "restore image" or not (I think it may have been), and not sure if that played into the scenario.
I am not sure if this will help or has validity, but when bringing forward an older project the very first thing I will do (after acknowledging missing plugins and the project is open) is "save as..." with a new name for that version. After that I will close and reopen the file so that the current version is working with the file saved by that version (in hopes to bypass any possible cwp configuration tweaks). This may be overkill, but the "save as..." is definitely recommended so that the original cwp is left as it was (and be opened in the version it was created in just in case).
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Anderton
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 2:11 PM
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mettelus
I am not sure if this will help or has validity...This may be overkill, but the "save as..." is definitely recommended so that the original cwp is left as it was (and be opened in the version it was created in just in case).
This is SUPER valid and helpful advice. I've been doing what I do for a long time, and have gone through multiple versions of multiple types of software. As a result I've encountered what the OP has encountered in numerous programs, and your advice can solve many issues.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 3:15 PM
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at the end of the day, it's just poorly coded software. no matter how many times you save a file, it shouldn't increase the chance of corruption and/or instabilities.
Cakewalk have been building up from the same code for a very long time.
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John
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 4:23 PM
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Its been my experience that all versions of Sonar can and do run all projects without issue. Even when a plugin is missing Sonar notes the fact and runs the project just fine. My projects go all the way back to Pro Audio 9. Not one of them has failed to open or run. The OS was Windows 95 back then. Nor have I suffered from file corruption.
As far as CW using old code, saving and loading are very basic procedures with any software. Old or not it wont change much over the years.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 4:27 PM
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almost every project if worked on for a long time, oddities to occur. its not the actual SAVING function that is wrong, just weird things happen like the OP said. Strange GUI artifacts, and other odd things. Too varied to really describe.
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sharke
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 4:41 PM
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I'm convinced that the Achilles heel of Sonar is its hosting of synths. I've found that it's the synth heavy projects which become corrupt over time, at least for me. Especially if you're constantly adding, removing and replacing synths and doing things like using the MIDI out of one synth to drive another, e.g. using Jamstix to drive Battery etc. I just think there is something about all of this back and forward routing and rerouting and connecting and disconnecting synths which makes things screwy.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 5:12 PM
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sharke
I'm convinced that the Achilles heel of Sonar is its hosting of synths. I've found that it's the synth heavy projects which become corrupt over time, at least for me. Especially if you're constantly adding, removing and replacing synths and doing things like using the MIDI out of one synth to drive another, e.g. using Jamstix to drive Battery etc. I just think there is something about all of this back and forward routing and rerouting and connecting and disconnecting synths which makes things screwy.
agree! 100%
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stratman70
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 8:50 PM
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The only times I have ever had issues and I mean way, way back was because of the synth rack for one reason or another. Sometimes my fault, like opening a project that has an old Kontakt version. Just one example. But for the most part I don't have too many issues with this and I am constantly "Saving as", Definitely helps.
post edited by stratman70 - February 20, 16 9:04 PM
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 9:16 PM
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It's not Sonar, in most instances it's older plugins that cause the instability. This unfortunately is the digital paradigm, and one I'm still figuring out how to solve. If I wasn't a broke student, I would have kept my last two computers, so I could access older projects this way...if I wasn't a broke student.
My suggestion is always freeze tracks after finishing a mix, however, this doesn't get you around the buses, and I tried to bounce entire stems and tracks...ugh what a nightmare.
Sonar is pretty rock solid, a couple of gremlins here and there, but humans design tech in their own image meaning, there will always be gremlins.
Ben
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 10:35 PM
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+1 on the idea that the synth heavy, midi out enabled projects are the one that act weird when opening older versions of Sonar.
However, I find, as well, that rebuilding them with newer versions of Kontakt etc. are worth the time.
HP DV6T - 2670QM, 8 GB RAM, Sonar Platypus, Octa Capture, BFD2 & Jamstix3, Komplete 10 and Komplete Kontrol Win 10 64 SLS PS8R Monitors and KRK Ergo https://soundcloud.com/airportface
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Paul P
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 20, 16 11:58 PM
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sharke
I just think there is something about all of this back and forward routing and rerouting and connecting and disconnecting synths which makes things screwy.
I wonder if the midi code being the oldest part of the software has anything to do with it. (or was it completely replaced at some point ?)
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Vastman
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 0:56 PM
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I have projects from Sonar 7 through every iteration... old plugs??? This is the only problem I've had... if a problem arises (I've deleted all 32 bit plugs) I disable all plugs and figure out the offending thingy... or often I just start over remixing/better plugs as things have changed sooooo much and I'm better at using tools...
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sharke
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 2:24 AM
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Paul P
sharke
I just think there is something about all of this back and forward routing and rerouting and connecting and disconnecting synths which makes things screwy.
I wonder if the midi code being the oldest part of the software has anything to do with it.
(or was it completely replaced at some point ?)
I've often wondered how old some of the code is. I bet some of it is 20 years old plus, lol. Not that there's anything wrong with that, unless newer code is not playing nice with it.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 8:17 AM
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☄ Helpfulby tlw February 21, 16 12:39 AM
sharke
I'm convinced that the Achilles heel of Sonar is its hosting of synths. I've found that it's the synth heavy projects which become corrupt over time, at least for me. Especially if you're constantly adding, removing and replacing synths and doing things like using the MIDI out of one synth to drive another, e.g. using Jamstix to drive Battery etc. I just think there is something about all of this back and forward routing and rerouting and connecting and disconnecting synths which makes things screwy.
Your big assumption is that the fault lies in the SONAR code. There is nothing super special about "hosting synths" as compared to hosting other plugins. Most definitely not as far as resaving and reloading project files. Saving and loading a project a thousand times has no effect from SONAR's point of view. What is more likely is that one or more of the plugins have issues leading to data corruption. Remember that a plugin can corrupt the heap and cause all kinds of unexpected behavior. If the problem is only happening with synths then its far more likely that one of your synths is causing the instability than SONAR itself. And the the premise of older code somehow being bad is a myth. In software, if anything older code (assuming it was designed properly) is more time tested and newer code is more liable to have problems :) The code with virtual instruments and plugins however is fairly new and is constantly being updated every version so its very current. The bottom line is a DAW hosts plugins and they run in the same process space as the host. Its a delicate ecosystem and the smallest bug in a plugin can cause a disastrous effect if it ends up corrupting memory. The only way to track down problems like this is through a process of elimination. If you are experiencing problems in only a certain project eliminate plugins one by one by removing the and saving multiple versions of the project. Then when you find a stable version that doesn't exhibit the problem start reintroducing the plugins till it has problems again. You will most likely find the problem that way iteratively. At that point you can report it to Cakewalk and the plugin vendor and we can try and find the root cause. Hope this clarifies that the assumption that a DAW is somehow responsible for and can address every possible error condition is flawed.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - February 21, 16 8:41 AM
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 8:35 AM
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I can try to open a X3 saved as Platinum or plain old Platinum project and get an immediate shutdown of Sonar. If I create a new project, or open a recent one that hasn't ever crashed, then I can close it and open one of the older "crashy" ones without a problem.
Go figure.
Grum.
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Paul P
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 9:29 AM
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If I were implementing a daw, I'd hate to let unknown plugin developers have access to my memory space. That sounds like an impossible situation. Is there no way to sandbox plugins ? Glad to hear that the midi code is (mostly?) recent. Old code is only bad if it's buried so far down that no one still around knows what it does or how it works. The "assuming it was designed properly" may be a lot to ask of code that was written 30 years ago.
post edited by Paul P - February 21, 16 9:47 AM
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Anderton
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 10:19 AM
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Paul P
If I were implementing a daw, I'd hate to let unknown plugin developers have access to my memory space.
That sounds like an impossible situation. Is there no way to sandbox plugins ?
It is indeed possible, but Bitwig is the only DAW that has implemented this.
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 10:38 AM
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I assign no blame, to DAW or Synth, host or parasite, woodland sprite or ghost in the machine, all I can say is that when I open an older S6 or X1 project and weird stuff starts to happen in SPLAT..... (and no I am not going to spend a lot of time explaining or categorizing or discussing, I just want to move on and start recording again) I immediately recognize the symptoms and start saving presets, deleting synths and then adding them back in. After about 30 minutes to an hour an I am back up with a super stable project that does not scare me everytime it pauses a little bit 
HP DV6T - 2670QM, 8 GB RAM, Sonar Platypus, Octa Capture, BFD2 & Jamstix3, Komplete 10 and Komplete Kontrol Win 10 64 SLS PS8R Monitors and KRK Ergo https://soundcloud.com/airportface
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jatoth
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 11:00 AM
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I have thought the issues with "bloating" and instability with "older" or projects that have been worked on a lot, have to do with Sonar's memory management. It reminds me of coding in MS Access. (remember how bloated the .mdb files would get?) Over time the project just keeps getting larger. Every change, adding/removing tracks, adding/removing synths, adding/removing plugins, copying/pasting clips, seems to increase the size of the project. Even when you "Save As", Sonar never recovers the unused allocated memory. I wish there was a "Consolidate/Compact Project" option that would rebuild the project based only on the active tracks/synths/plugins/clips that are currently being used in the project.
While composing, I have worked on projects that may have had 30-40 tracks some with multiple takes, I tried dozens of synths and plugs before settling on the ones I liked. After bouncing and freezing, I would delete all unneeded synths, takes, and tracks to work on the "mix". Now down to 8-10 final tracks, 3-4 buses and only the plugs I will be using, the project is still larger than the last "Save As" and getting larger with each tweak.
I think with a robust "garbage collection" routine, we would see quite a few of these random "instabilities" go away.
Then again, what do I know?
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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jpetersen
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 11:23 AM
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Utilities > CWAF Let it rattle over your hard drives. It will find corrupt Sonar projects (if any).
post edited by jpetersen - February 21, 16 11:38 AM
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Cactus Music
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 12:07 AM
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Only Issue I get is the way a project "looks". I'll open older projects and they are weird but that is becuase the view has changed in PLAT compaired to older versions. But I've never had the any CWP not play of freeze. And I go back to Guitar Studio ( 5?) They open with a warning and old plug ins are noted but greyed out. So it's easy to see that it's a reverb or chorus that is now missing. Note: I've never used BUN. files. Even though it's been explained over and over that they should be stable, I still see posts with crashing etc issues and they are trying to open old BUN files. Alawys make back ups in different formats if you must. I always back up projects as MID. files. Most of your hard work, like drums, will be safe forever as a midi file. And easily opened in any DAW>
post edited by Cactus Music - February 21, 16 12:24 AM
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 12:25 AM
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Anderton
It is indeed possible, but Bitwig is the only DAW that has implemented this.
Not true. Bitbridge is a sandbox albeit only for 32 bit plugins. Jbridge allows sandboxing even 64 bitplugins. The downside to sandboxing is obviously performance (and potentially other bugs). So there is no perfect solution today.
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 12:28 AM
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jatoth
I have thought the issues with "bloating" and instability with "older" or projects that have been worked on a lot, have to do with Sonar's memory management. It reminds me of coding in MS Access. (remember how bloated the .mdb files would get?) Over time the project just keeps getting larger. Every change, adding/removing tracks, adding/removing synths, adding/removing plugins, copying/pasting clips, seems to increase the size of the project. Even when you "Save As", Sonar never recovers the unused allocated memory. I wish there was a "Consolidate/Compact Project" option that would rebuild the project based only on the active tracks/synths/plugins/clips that are currently being used in the project.
While composing, I have worked on projects that may have had 30-40 tracks some with multiple takes, I tried dozens of synths and plugs before settling on the ones I liked. After bouncing and freezing, I would delete all unneeded synths, takes, and tracks to work on the "mix". Now down to 8-10 final tracks, 3-4 buses and only the plugs I will be using, the project is still larger than the last "Save As" and getting larger with each tweak.
I think with a robust "garbage collection" routine, we would see quite a few of these random "instabilities" go away.
Then again, what do I know?
Thats an incorrect speculation. You can load and save a project as many times you want and there is no bloat. If there is it would be considered a bug. There were some issues with Audiosnap a long time ago which could cause excessive markers. But with plugins there is no such issue of "bloat".
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Paul P
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Re: Is It Just Me or Do Older Project Become Extremely Unstable in Platinum?
February 21, 16 12:54 AM
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Jbridge allows sandboxing even 64 bitplugins.
Thanks for the tip and I just discovered the option to use it in the Plug-in Manager. I imagine this could be useful if one suspects a plugin to be the cause of problems. [could you please fix the forum clock which is now 13 minutes fast ?]
post edited by Paul P - February 21, 16 1:09 PM
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