rogeriodec
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A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
I just want to do something very simple: cut off some measures of beginning of this midi file: http://www.kunstderfuge.com/-/midi.asp?file=beethoven/symphony_9_4_(c)cvikl.midAnd of course make all other bars to move to the beginning. To be more specific, select the measures of 1:00:000 to 153:03:090, cut it out (includind Tempo) and what was 153:03:090 must be now 1:00:000. "Delete Special" is buggy, as "Cut Special" also. Could anyone tell me how to solve this simple operation?
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 12:51:31
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I tried the following with your MIDI file, and it seemed to work:
1. Place the now time at 153:03:090.
2. Select All.
3. Type "S" (for "split").
4. With All still selected, drag left in the timeline from the Now Time position to the beginning.
5. Choose Edit > Cut Special and check everything except "Shift by Whole Measures."
After you click OK, things should be as you want them.
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rogeriodec
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 13:04:28
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Anderton
I tried the following with your MIDI file, and it seemed to work:
1. Place the now time at 153:03:090.
2. Select All.
3. Type "S" (for "split").
4. With All still selected, drag left in the timeline from the Now Time position to the beginning.
5. Choose Edit > Cut Special and check everything except "Shift by Whole Measures."
After you click OK, things should be as you want them.
Thank you, but it seems you did not get to test what you're saying, in this file, right?
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Klaus
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 13:30:19
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Both "Cut Special"and "Delete Special" work here (I downloaded the MIDI file in question and tested it).
Be sure to check "Delete Hole".
To save a bit time regarding step 4:
Since dragging in the timeline to 1:00:000 can take a couple of seconds depending on zoom level and from where you start dragging, it's faster just to click in the top of the timeline (where cursor changes to "Zoom" icon) on the left side of the split.
This selects the time range between Start and Now Time position.
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Klaus
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 13:42:56
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Sorry, I'm wrong with what I said about step 4. I had a marker inserted at that position, that's why this time range got selected. 
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rogeriodec
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 14:10:15
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What am I doing wrong? 1) Here is the Midi file, already positioned and all selected:  2) What happens when pressing "S" (Split)  3) Going to 1:01:00 and calling "Cut Special"  4) Following the steps you told me, obviously ALL has been deleted:  5) Undoing the last action and selecting only the range from 1:00:000 to 153:03:090  6) Cut Special with all options selected:  7) As you can see, some clips were not moved after Cut Special.  So, is not a bug?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 14:51:35
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Preferences > Customisation > Editing > Clips > Selection after single split
Set to "Right Portion"
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 15:09:27
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rogeriodec
Thank you, but it seems you did not get to test what you're saying, in this file, right?
As I said..."I tried the following with your MIDI file..." Worked for me. However, I should have mentioned something that's often been discussed here in case you missed it: SONAR won't delete something that's not there. The tracks that didn't move started after the space you wanted to eliminate. I just dragged one of your short MIDI files into tracks 9, 10, 11 and 21, but a more obvious way to see if there's nothing in the track is to hold Ctrl and set the Edit Filter to Notes. Then just click anywhere in a track's empty space within the section to be cut. This is an annoyance but once you know about it, you can do the workaround. Hope this helps!
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robert_e_bone
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 15:48:14
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I am not sure a track will delete a hole and slide over, if there was no midi data present ahead of what you are trying to slide over - in that given track.
Could it be that the tracks that didn't slide could have no midi data ahead of them?
Bob Bone
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 16:50:19
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I think the problem could be, at least according to the posted screenshots, that after the tracks are split, the portions to the right of the split are not selected, hence my post #7.
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rogeriodec
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/22 21:28:43
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Now I understand that actually a simple operation becomes very complicated in Sonar (which is unfortunately something common in this software). Any editing software, simple as it is, has a simple concept: what is selected and is cut, all that is to the right should be automatically shifted to the left. This is something basic. Now, we have to agree that the options "Delete Hole" and "Shift by Whole measures" are buggy. My images prove it. And once again, we have to use manual operation to work around these bugs. In my case, my mistake was to believe that "Delete Hole" worked. But at least, partially following the suggestion of Anderton, I managed to solve this problem: - Place the now time at 153:03:090.
- Select All.
- Type "S" (for "split").
- Edit -> Select -> Thru = Now (this is to correct the selection point that should be trimmed)
- Edit -> Cut Special (select everything EXCEPT "Delete Hole" and "Shift by Whole measures")
- Select All, again.
- Manually move all the clips to the first bar.
Many steps to something simple. But it's one of the difficulties that we must tolerate. Anyway, I appreciate all your support.
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SquireBum
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 04:16:01
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Splitting the clips should not be necessary. If Delete Hole is working properly, selecting all tracks and setting the From and Thru time for the portion to be deleted is all that is needed.
Using the MIDI file provided by the OP, I tried the following steps in Sonar 8.5, X2a, X3e, and Platinum 2016.03:
Steps to reproduce:
1. Opened provided MIDI file.
2. Selected all tracks using Ctrl+A.
3. Set the From time to 1:1:000 in the Selection Module.
4. Set the Thru time to 153:3:090 in the Selection Module.
5. Executed Edit > Delete Special... with the Events and Delete Hole checkbox marked.
Expected Results: Measures 1 thru 153.3.90 would be deleted and all remaining clips would be moved to fill the hole.
Actual Results:
Sonar 8.5, X2a, and X3e deleted measures 1 thru 153.3.90. The remaining clips moved together to fill the hole on all tracks. [PASSED]
Platinum 2016.03 deleted measures 1 thru 153. Clips on tracks 1, 10, 11 and 12 did not move. Clips on remaining tracks moved to fill the hole. [FAILED]
Conclusion: Delete Hole does not work as expected in Platinum 2016.03.
I recommend the OP creates a Problem Report and provide the MIDI file example.
-- Ron
EDIT: The Non-destructive MIDI editing option was unchecked in Preferences in all Sonar versions.
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 10:57:56
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SquireBum
Splitting the clips should not be necessary. If Delete Hole is working properly, selecting all tracks and setting the From and Thru time for the portion to be deleted is all that is needed.
True, splitting should not be necessary. However, if a split falls in the middle of a MIDI note, the note will not be split. (I believe this is a design decision, not a bug, however I think it would make more sense if it did split the note, and SONAR left it up to the user to deal with creating two notes where there used to be one.) Attempting to split and not getting a split makes it obvious when you need to split a note manually. Conclusion : Delete Hole does not work as expected in Platinum 2016.03. I recommend the OP creates a Problem Report and provide the MIDI file example. I don't think there's any need, it's a well-known issue that Delete Hole won't delete space in a track if there's no data in that space; this has been submitted before. The issue is that if there's nothing to delete, currently SONAR's delete operation doesn't know what to do. Please see my post above for the workaround. With that workaround Delete Hole works as expected. Note that the data doesn't have to be a clip, it can be anything. EDIT: The Non-destructive MIDI editing option was unchecked in Preferences in all Sonar versions. That's a useful addition of data, although I tried the workaround described above that allows Delete Hole to work properly with it checked and it worked the same way. I do believe there are a variety of conditions attached to whether it's checked or not, but I don't remember them all offhand. Also FWIW, create a few tracks that don't have data until, say, measure 10. Then select all and try to Cut Special measures 1-9. Both Cut Special and Delete Special will be grayed out. Also these Delete Hole limitations apply to audio tracks as well as MIDI.
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SquireBum
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 12:50:54
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Anderton
SquireBum
Splitting the clips should not be necessary. If Delete Hole is working properly, selecting all tracks and setting the From and Thru time for the portion to be deleted is all that is needed.
True, splitting should not be necessary. However, if a split falls in the middle of a MIDI note, the note will not be split. (I believe this is a design decision, not a bug, however I think it would make more sense if it did split the note, and SONAR left it up to the user to deal with creating two notes where there used to be one.) Attempting to split and not getting a split makes it obvious when you need to split a note manually.
Conclusion : Delete Hole does not work as expected in Platinum 2016.03.
I recommend the OP creates a Problem Report and provide the MIDI file example.
I don't think there's any need, it's a well-known issue that Delete Hole won't delete space in a track if there's no data in that space; this has been submitted before. The issue is that if there's nothing to delete, currently SONAR's delete operation doesn't know what to do. Please see my post above for the workaround. With that workaround Delete Hole works as expected. Note that the data doesn't have to be a clip, it can be anything. EDIT: The Non-destructive MIDI editing option was unchecked in Preferences in all Sonar versions. That's a useful addition of data, although I tried the workaround described above that allows Delete Hole to work properly with it checked and it worked the same way. I do believe there are a variety of conditions attached to whether it's checked or not, but I don't remember them all offhand. Also FWIW, create a few tracks that don't have data until, say, measure 10. Then select all and try to Cut Special measures 1-9. Both Cut Special and Delete Special will be grayed out. Also these Delete Hole limitations apply to audio tracks as well as MIDI. Craig, My conclusions were based on the fact that Delete Hole functioned as expected in 3 versions of Sonar prior to Platinum. All tracks moved to close the hole, including the ones that started after end of time selection. Are you saying that Platinum is performing as expected even though earlier versions provided the desired result? -- Ron
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 14:25:03
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SquireBum
Craig,
My conclusions were based on the fact that Delete Hole functioned as expected in 3 versions of Sonar prior to Platinum. All tracks moved to close the hole, including the ones that started after end of time selection.
Are you saying that Platinum is performing as expected even though earlier versions provided the desired result?
-- Ron
No, I just said that this is a known issue with Platinum that has been commented on before, and for which bug reports have been submitted. I can't comment on how Delete Hole worked prior to Platinum because it's not something I use much, so I don't remember...when arranging, I already have sections of clips grouped and just move them around, copy them, delete them, etc. This is also why I make a lot of use of Select All + Split to segregate different sections for grouping. It seems like not very many SONAR users are into grouping, especially if they use MIDI because SONAR won't split the middle of notes, but it's been part of my workflow with Sony Vegas for years. I just naturally gravitated over to that workflow in SONAR. P.S. - FWIW I wrote about this technique in Week 76 of Friday's Tip of the Week.
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SquireBum
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 14:53:38
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2016/04/24 02:56:36
Anderton
SquireBum
Craig,
My conclusions were based on the fact that Delete Hole functioned as expected in 3 versions of Sonar prior to Platinum. All tracks moved to close the hole, including the ones that started after end of time selection.
Are you saying that Platinum is performing as expected even though earlier versions provided the desired result?
-- Ron
No, I just said that this is a known issue with Platinum that has been commented on before, and for which bug reports have been submitted. I can't comment on how Delete Hole worked prior to Platinum because it's not something I use much, so I don't remember...when arranging, I already have sections of clips grouped and just move them around, copy them, delete them, etc.
This is also why I make a lot of use of Select All + Split to segregate different sections for grouping. It seems like not very many SONAR users are into grouping, especially if they use MIDI because SONAR won't split the middle of notes, but it's been part of my workflow with Sony Vegas for years. I just naturally gravitated over to that workflow in SONAR.
P.S. - FWIW I wrote about this technique in Week 76 of Friday's Tip of the Week.
Craig, Thanks for the clarification. I interpreted your comment about no need for a Problem Report to mean that you thought this was working as expected. For clarification I created animations of the Delete Hole function in Sonar X3 and Platinum 2016.03. This is my first attempt at a linked upload, so I hope it works.  The first animation is Sonar X3. Notice that the clips on Tracks 3 and 4 move to the left along with the MIDI notes in Tracks 1,2, and 5. It appears that in this example that tracks that do not have MIDI data in the "hole" still move following clips to the left.  The second animation is Platinum 2016.03. Notice that the clips on Tracks 3 and 4 do not move.  Thanks, Ron
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rogeriodec
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 15:34:02
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Excellent comparison job, Ron!
Now it visually clear that there is a serious bug in Platinum.
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msorrels
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 17:10:42
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A serious bug that's been in Platinum for more than a year now. One that is easily reproducible, doesn't involve any 3rd party software or hardware. A function that users need/use pretty much all the time. All the various cut/copy/paste/overwrite/edit MIDI bugs drive me crazy and they have been around for a very long time.
Make MIDI better needs to be the meme, Cakewalk could start with this.
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williamcopper
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 18:41:01
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/04/23 19:25:45
Completely agree Sonar Platinum or maybe at some time in the X series has created serious selection bugs, they've been reported, they really cause loss of many hours of time, and they should be fixed. For the OP, however, try using "select all", first, to get all tracks involved, and then "select by time", and then cut special with 'delete hole' (not 'by whole measures' .. that's another bug) -- then even the unselected clips will be moved as you want them. For a specific procedure: here's how I do it, but I'm not sure whether my shortcuts are unique to my set up or not (Ctl-A = select all and s = "select by time"). Click in track view, anywhere, to make sure nothing is selected Type Ctl-A (select all) Type S -- brings up the select by time dialog, enter 1, tab, 153:3:090, enter. Ctl-Alt-X (cut special) Check tempo changes and markers and meter and delete hole. Enter. (edit -- this is Platinum, Kingston ... seems to be an issue for later updates)
post edited by williamcopper - 2016/04/24 20:23:17
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SquireBum
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 19:54:25
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Curiosity forced me to Rollback versions of Platinum until I found the last version in which Delete Hole functioned as expected. The last version that functioned as expected was "Kingston".
So, the bottom line is if you can't live without the Delete Hole functionality, then you must rollback to "Kingston".
Hope this helps,
Ron
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 20:41:17
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Interesting. The Kingston update also didn't have the "ReWire distortion on playback with Reason" that started with Lexington, although that bug has been fixed in SONAR 2016.04. Maybe it's too much to hope that fixing the ReWire bug also fixed this one...
Ron, I would recommend re-submitting a report, since the fact that it worked in Kingston but hasn't worked since Lexington is the kind of data that should make it a lot easier to track down the problem. I'm sure the Bakers will appreciate that level of diligence.
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 20:44:21
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williamcopper
For the OP, however, try using "select all", first, to get all tracks involved, and then "select by time", and then cut special with 'delete hole' (not 'by whole measures' .. that's another bug) -- then even the unselected clips will be moved as you want them.
But will this still work on the OP's project where a track didn't have data until after the hole to be deleted? I don't think so.
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williamcopper
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/23 21:51:32
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Yes, it works, at least as of Platinum Kingston.
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SquireBum
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 00:42:46
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Anderton
Ron, I would recommend re-submitting a report, since the fact that it worked in Kingston but hasn't worked since Lexington is the kind of data that should make it a lot easier to track down the problem. I'm sure the Bakers will appreciate that level of diligence.
As Craig suggested, I created and submitted the following Problem Report. CWBRN-49873Report DetailsProduct SONAR Platinum Version 22.3.0.71 Architecture x64 Status New Summary Delete Hole function does not work after Lexington Update Repro Steps - Create new project
- Insert 5 MIDI tracks
- Record 4 bars of MIDI notes
- Copy recorded Clip to tracks 2 -5. Move the clip on track 3 to Measure 5 and track 4 to Measure 6
- Select all tracks
- Drag timeline from Measure 1 to Measure 4
- Execute Delete Special with the Events and Delete Hole check boxes checked
Expected Results The first 3 Measures of midi data should be deleted from Tracks 1,2 and 5 with the remaining MIDI notes moving to bar 1. The clip on Track 3 should move 3 Measures to the left and start on Measure 2. The clip on Track 4 should move 3 Measures to the left and start on Measure 3. The expected results were confirmed in Sonar 8.5, Sonar X2a, Sonar X3e, and all Platinum versions up to "Kingston". Actual Results The first 3 Measures of midi data are deleted from Tracks 1,2 and 5 with the remaining MIDI notes moving to bar 1. The clip on Track 3 remains at Measure 5 and the clip on Track 4 remains at Measure 6. The Actual results were confirmed on all Platinum versions starting with Lexington through 2016.03. I am attaching a test project based on the Steps to Reproduce, an animated GIF from Platinum Kingston and an animated GIF from Platinum 2016.03. OS Windows 7 64-bit Reproducibility ReproducibleInAllProjects Filed 4/24/2016 Last update 4/24/2016
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 01:53:32
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mettelus
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 02:45:06
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SquireBum
The second animation is Platinum 2016.03. Notice that the clips on Tracks 3 and 4 do not move.
Thanks,
Ron
Just in case folks didn't catch this... note that the non-shifted tracks also deselect, which is the same bug/issue noted in this thread. If SONAR decides there is nothing to process, the user selection is altered. I think the core of this bug is the deselection... and it seems to be done prior to the "delete hole" portion of the algorithm.
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lapasoa
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 04:50:41
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As written before, there must be something (both audio or midi) in every track at the beginning of what you want to delete.
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Anderton
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 10:47:45
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lapasoa
As written before, there must be something (both audio or midi) in every track at the beginning of what you want to delete.
I think an automation node will also serve this purpose.
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williamcopper
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 20:11:00
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Got to be careful about that 'something' ... again, clips are likely to get involved here. If the 'something' results in a clip extending from the beginning of the file into your selection region, yes, but if the 'something' results in a separate clip, not selected because the start time is beyond the end of that clip, then the OP remains.
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msorrels
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Re: A simple MIDI editing is driving me crazy!
2016/04/24 23:51:07
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There is no reason why Sonar can't let you select some tracks and a region of time and then delete that region of time, moving all the tracks over. For years their have been issues with deleting holes -- this forum is full of posts about various methods and processes to remove silences/delete holes. It sounds like this specific problem didn't start until Lexington back in Nov 2015. I wished we could get Cakewalk to understand how important it is to have these bread and butter project database operations work.
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