ramscapri
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What am I doing wrong with automation and midi learn ?
Has anybody experienced any problem with midi learn or automation lately ? Now, this is simply what I wanted and tried to do : On a Dropzone instance (which is 32-bit working on my 64-bit with bridge), I have a midi track running which works fine as it is on playback. Now, all I wanted to do was automate the filter cutoff for the selected patch. I right clicked on the knob, selected midi learn and assigned a knob on my midi controller. It worked for a few seconds and then just won't respond. Moreover, when I click the "W" button on the synth's VST header, run playback and then rotate the knob, no automation is recorded. I thought this problem could be because Dropzone is 32-bit, and so tried doing this with an instance of Dimension pro which is 64-bit, but same problem persists. The midi-learned knobs stop responding here too. In fact, midi learn happens for the first knob, responds for some time, but as soon as I try to midi learn another knob, it doesn't learn and the first knob also stops responding. Interestingly, this problem does not exist on the standalone Dimension pro, only when inserted within Sonar Platinum. I haven't tried other synths but needed to get this done soon, so reaching out for help. Edit : Just to add, I tried this with Rapture (64-bit) and the same problem occurs. There is no problem with midi learns in the standalone mode, I tried it for 3 knobs and worked fine. But the same can't be done for a Rapture instance within Sonar. After assigning midi learn to one knob, there is no further response. On top of that, just realized that audio gets shut off after this is done. Nothing is heard. Very annoying ! Will be helpful if someone could try this. Need to know if I am doing something wrong here... 
************************************************************Sonar Platinum ∞, HP Envy Core i7-4700 Quadcore touchscreen laptop, 16 GB RAM, Windows 10 64-bit, Roland Octacapture, Zoom H6, Akai MPK Mini mk2, Novation Launchpad Mini mk2, NI Komplete 11, KRK KNS-8400, AKG P120
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vladasyn
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Re: What am I doing wrong with automation and midi learn ?
May 19, 16 11:54 AM
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I do not use Automation for this purpose. I asign knobs via midi learn only for Cakewalk synths, and then use regular Record button. The CC data gets recorded to the regular track and plays back. Another work around is to use mouse instead of knob and record instrument in real time as audio- it is new feature- just press record on the instrument audio track and Record on the transport.
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ramscapri
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Re: What am I doing wrong with automation and midi learn ?
May 19, 16 12:14 AM
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vladasyn
I do not use Automation for this purpose. I asign knobs via midi learn only for Cakewalk synths, and then use regular Record button. The CC data gets recorded to the regular track and plays back. Another work around is to use mouse instead of knob and record instrument in real time as audio- it is new feature- just press record on the instrument audio track and Record on the transport.
Thanks for your response but that is not the crux of the problem. Normally, midi learn should work properly for synths inserted within Sonar. And when automation write ("W") is enabled on the synth's VST header, one should simply be able to write automation using the midi controller knobs and sliders during playback of the track. I have done this before, I just can't figure out why its not working properly for me right now. Are there any changes made to the way midi learn and automation is done or the way it works in the latest versions of Sonar ? Or am I doing something wrong ? Has anybody tried this and does it work properly ?
************************************************************Sonar Platinum ∞, HP Envy Core i7-4700 Quadcore touchscreen laptop, 16 GB RAM, Windows 10 64-bit, Roland Octacapture, Zoom H6, Akai MPK Mini mk2, Novation Launchpad Mini mk2, NI Komplete 11, KRK KNS-8400, AKG P120
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azslow3
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Re: What am I doing wrong with automation and midi learn ?
May 19, 16 7:24 PM
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☄ Helpfulby ramscapri May 20, 16 11:36 AM
I have just tried DropZone with MIDI learn (3 controls) and that work as expected in 2016.4, recorded, controls are changing on playback (btw with MPK mini). But from the second post, I think you are mixing different "technologies", may be 2 or even 3: 1) MIDI learn inside plug-in which support that. The information is recorded independent from what you have "learned", all CC changes are recorded into MIDI track in any case. But if they are "learned" they produce effect on parameters. And now possible problem: it can be that CC you are using is already in use for something, learn or predefined, for example "Volume" in MIDI world is also just a CC and setting it to 0 effectively suppress any output from some synth (that was bugging be at the beginning, one of my buttons was CC7, effectively silencing whatever synth had current focus). Look at https://www.midi.org/specifications/item/table-3-control-change-messages-data-bytes-2 and configure your controller to send some "undefined" CC messages. Not a warrantee against troubles with particular synth, but significantly reduce the probability of unexpected clashes. 2) (1) has no relation with track automations, and so with "W" buttons. You can create an automation and assign a "remote" to it. In this case it will work throw completely different route. But... Sonar does not block assigned "remote" MIDI controls, so they can "leak" to MIDI tracks, producing the whole set of side effects explained in (1). Even worse, since you also control automation parameter, that effects can be rather confusing. 3) In case you use some ACT enabled plug-ins (ACT MIDI, Generic Surface, etc) you can also control plug-in parameters. Technically it is working as (2), but incoming CC are processed by ACT Control Surface plug-in and not by Sonar. In such case, used CC are blocked from leaking into MIDI tracks and you do not have side effects. Confusing part was with ACT Dynamic mapping. I will post a new thread about my new tool to solve all related problems. For some plug-ins, (2) and so (3) as well are not working correctly. (1) is the only option then. But (3) is a more general solution, also working for not MIDI plug-ins like audio effects.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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ramscapri
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Re: What am I doing wrong with automation and midi learn ?
May 20, 16 11:55 AM
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azslow3
I have just tried DropZone with MIDI learn (3 controls) and that work as expected in 2016.4, recorded, controls are changing on playback (btw with MPK mini).
But from the second post, I think you are mixing different "technologies", may be 2 or even 3:
1) MIDI learn inside plug-in which support that. The information is recorded independent from what you have "learned", all CC changes are recorded into MIDI track in any case. But if they are "learned" they produce effect on parameters. And now possible problem: it can be that CC you are using is already in use for something, learn or predefined, for example "Volume" in MIDI world is also just a CC and setting it to 0 effectively suppress any output from some synth (that was bugging be at the beginning, one of my buttons was CC7, effectively silencing whatever synth had current focus). Look at https://www.midi.org/specifications/item/table-3-control-change-messages-data-bytes-2 and configure your controller to send some "undefined" CC messages. Not a warrantee against troubles with particular synth, but significantly reduce the probability of unexpected clashes.
2) (1) has no relation with track automations, and so with "W" buttons. You can create an automation and assign a "remote" to it. In this case it will work throw completely different route. But... Sonar does not block assigned "remote" MIDI controls, so they can "leak" to MIDI tracks, producing the whole set of side effects explained in (1). Even worse, since you also control automation parameter, that effects can be rather confusing.
3) In case you use some ACT enabled plug-ins (ACT MIDI, Generic Surface, etc) you can also control plug-in parameters. Technically it is working as (2), but incoming CC are processed by ACT Control Surface plug-in and not by Sonar. In such case, used CC are blocked from leaking into MIDI tracks and you do not have side effects. Confusing part was with ACT Dynamic mapping. I will post a new thread about my new tool to solve all related problems.
For some plug-ins, (2) and so (3) as well are not working correctly. (1) is the only option then. But (3) is a more general solution, also working for not MIDI plug-ins like audio effects.
Azslow3, thanks a ton for your detailed feedback. Very helpful and clarified many issues for me. Guess what, I could successfully record the automation curve I wanted to using the rotary knob on my MPK Mini mk2. But not exactly and as easily as I thought I could do it, but that was probably because I had some misconceptions, many of which was clarified by your points. 1. Firstly, as you rightly guessed, I had the 8 rotary knobs on my MPK Mini mk2 set to CC numbers 1 to 8 which was probably causing the problem as they were conflicting with pre-assigned midi parameters within Sonar. I changed them to CC numbers 23 to 30 which solved the problem of the audio going dead. I also realized why the same problem was not occurring in the standalone synths even with CC nos. 1 to 8. That was because the standalone versions were simply taking the midi messages from any control through midi learn and working well as there are no midi tracks here where conflicts could occur due to pre-assignments. The conflicts happen only inside a DAW when midi tracks are involved or so I am assuming. 2. Now its the next step which didn't work as I assumed it should. Once I did midi learn for the cutoff and assigned CC 23 knob from my MPK Mini, it got assigned and worked. But next when I clicked "W" on DropZone VST header to write enable it and then ran playback and moved the knob, the cutoff on the synth would rotate as expected but the automation curve would not appear and not get recorded on the synth audio track. I had assumed that should have happened. I can bet I have done that before sometime, just can't remember how. What I had to do this time instead was open an automation lane, choose the cutoff parameter for automation, then right click on its meter, click "Remote Control" and then learn CC 23 there under Control option. Then I deleted the end node on the default straight line to clear it, ran playback with "W" enabled and this time the automation was recorded directly from my MPK Mini's rotary knob. 3. I am yet to try doing a complete setup for my MPK Mini as an ACT MIDI controller under Sonar's Control surface setup options. There seems to be no preset in Sonar for MPK Mini mk2. I tried doing an ACT learn setup in the controller properties but it did not show CC nos., and some of the cells for rotaries were preassigned to Pan, etc., and did not change when I tried ACT learning them. I quit that time and am yet to try again. I visited your website which is quite informative with many ACT Controller presets too but didn't find one for MPK Mini mk2. It will be helpful if you have and could send a link to an ACT setup preset for MPK Mini mk2 for Sonar. Thanks once again for your very helpful info. Cheers...
************************************************************Sonar Platinum ∞, HP Envy Core i7-4700 Quadcore touchscreen laptop, 16 GB RAM, Windows 10 64-bit, Roland Octacapture, Zoom H6, Akai MPK Mini mk2, Novation Launchpad Mini mk2, NI Komplete 11, KRK KNS-8400, AKG P120
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azslow3
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Re: What am I doing wrong with automation and midi learn ?
May 20, 16 6:25 PM
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I am glad my explanation could help.
About (2) in your post. When you MIDI learn some control, you can not record it as a track automation the same way as with "Remote Control". But you can record it the same way as notes, directly to the MIDI track. If you do not want to do this as one performance with keys, so you first record keys and then record CC, there are several options:
a) you can switch to "Sound on Sound" recording (in the Preferences/Project/Record) and then "bounce" both recorded MIDI clips together. Default recording mode is "Comping", as soon as you start recording CC it will silence the clip with Notes.
b) create another MIDI track with the same output, and record CC changes into it. Than you can use Comping mode, for example if you record CC in several takes.
The idea is the same as recording several audio instruments pointing the same bus without silencing already recorded instruments, you can either use "Sound on sound" or just different tracks. For Sonar, Notes, CC and other MIDI messages are equal "MIDI material", the same as analog recording from different instruments is "Audio material"
For "ACT MIDI", I strongly recommend to read chapters 20 and 40 in the Sonar Reference Guide (the one with 2000+ pages). For complete understanding how it works, read "ACT MIDI Explained" thread on my site. "ACT Learn" is not the way to configure ACT MIDI to work with your controller, it is for ACT Dynamic Mapping. To understand that features, read "ACT" thread on my side inside AZ Controller manual and "How to make ACT Learn working" to really work with that feature (you will hit many Sonar bugs otherwise).
"ACT MIDI" plug-in is not perfect for MPK mini (one of the reasons my site and AZ Controller exists). You are right, while AZ Controller was written to work with MPK mini, I have not published any complex preset for it. I am absolute noob in music production and mixing and you do not want to hear my performance... But I need some controller, with which I can modify directly several project specific parameters without looking at monitor (the monitor is behind my DP in one room and far from E-Drums in another room). So I create suitable configurations "on the fly" instead of using one configuration for all purpose. All presets you can see on my site was created in cooperation with other users, I bet more knowledgeable then me in what useful general preset should do. You are welcome to cooperate so we create something for MPK mini, it will do what you want and the way you like it. From you I will need some information what you want where and your time to test the result, see other presets threads how that works.
But there is "Startup" preset, with very basic configuration (a kind of "ACT MIDI" functionality). I have made YouTube video how to use it with MPK mini.
PS If you are going to use hardware control surfaces in modern DAWs, the time you spend learning a bit more how it works can save your time (also money) in the future and avoid frustration. All DAWs and cooperation with controllers have quite similar technic behind. While some are advertised as "working out of the box", it is not possible to use the whole potential that way. Think as about just using presets for VST(i) vs tuning particular parameters yourself. CW ACT, Novation AutoMap, NI NKS, Akai Advance are all in the same category, while they all are far away from direct "MIDI map" approach.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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