AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 11:49:29
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brundlefly
Klaus
brundlefly
Also, make sure you don't have any MIDI track inputs set to All Inputs - Omni and no synths have MIDI Out enabled where not intended.
Did you check what brundlefly said above?
Because in combination with...:
SilverBlueMedallion
hello, it is an AKAI MPK 25 key. I enabled write automation on ONE track... hit record and messed around with the pitch wheel on ONE track. How could ALL my tracks be effected by the wheel changes I made on ONE track?
...this could be the reason why pitch wheel data is recorded on other tracks, too.
Yes, this is almost certainly the problem. As mentioned earlier, you write automation on playback. If you record, any armed track will record wheel events as MIDI data instead of writing an automation envelope on the one write-enabled track.
nope. my other tracks were NOT armed. Only the one doing pitch wheel changes on. and why would " All Inputs - Omni" be the default? seems kinda silly to have a pitch wheel change on one track effect others.
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brundlefly
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 12:02:03
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I don't think you've clarified whether you actual ever succeed in writing an automation envelope or whether you recorded Wheel events, and whether those wheel events were recorded on more than one track.
I'm fairly confident this is a configuration/procedural issue, but without being able to lay hands on the project, it's a little difficult to know what exactly went wrong.
If you don't set a specific MIDI input/channel SONAR defaults to All Inputs - Omni as the lesser of two weevils - recording nothing or recording everything. In most cases, recording everything will not be a problem, but recording nothing will always be a problem.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 12:23:58
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OK here is EXACTLY what I did...
1. I have multiple simple instrument tracks with notes recorded on to them. No wheel movements on any of them
2. I decided i wanted a wheel movement on one track so I simply clicked the "W" for "write automation" and armed the track. Then I simply moved the wheel while it was recording. I see the wheel movement drawing ONLY in the one track I did the wheel movements on.
How that wheel movement on track 1 is effecting other tracks is beyond me.
According to your last statement, this sounds like default behavior? Wheel movements will be captured on ALL tracks because of the MIDI-OMNI (all)? How come the events dont SHOW these wheel movements on those tracks?
Sonar should be smart enough to keep the wheel movements contained to the track I recorded it on.
Adding a little pitch bend shouldn't be that hard.
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SimpleManZ
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 12:45:09
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SilverBlueMedallion
OK here is EXACTLY what I did...
1. I have multiple simple instrument tracks with notes recorded on to them. No wheel movements on any of them
2. I decided i wanted a wheel movement on one track so I simply clicked the "W" for "write automation" and armed the track. Then I simply moved the wheel while it was recording. I see the wheel movement drawing ONLY in the one track I did the wheel movements on.
How that wheel movement on track 1 is effecting other tracks is beyond me.
According to your last statement, this sounds like default behavior? Wheel movements will be captured on ALL tracks because of the MIDI-OMNI (all)? How come the events dont SHOW these wheel movements on those tracks?
Sonar should be smart enough to keep the wheel movements contained to the track I recorded it on.
Adding a little pitch bend shouldn't be that hard.
If I have never seen this problem because I don't do it that way. Meaning, I do not engage 'W' to record pitch-bend/modulation wheel movements. In recording mode I have 'Sound-on-Sound' selected. Record enable that track. Start the engine, the wheel events are thus recorded, same as just adding notes by playing the keyboard. Not saying that there might be a problem with Sonar or maybe just within this project template.
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tlw
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 12:49:05
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Personally I record pitch bend, modulation and any other CCs into a track as MIDI data, not as automation.
All tracks that have received a pitch-bend instruction will have passed it on to their linked synth. The synth will then adjust its pitch by the amount sent by the instruction. They will not reset their pitch to "standard" unless told to do so.
There won't be anything in the events list because although the synth has been sent pitch bend data the data has not been recorded into the track. Just like when you play a software synth without recording the MIDI the synth responds to your playing and retains whatever state it was in when you stopped playing until you tell it otherwise.
The simplest answer to all of this is to use Sonar's ability to recognise different MIDI ports if you have more than one controller so a single controller doesn't control everything amd synths only see what a particular controler is sending. And/or to use MIDI channels to set each synth to a different channel and then send data from the controller on the channel the track you want to respond is set to.
And no, this isn't a work-round. It's just how MIDI works. No different to using MIDI controlled hardware really. And at least Sonar can keep the MIDI traffic from different sources separate, some (e.g. Logic) combine all incoming MIDI into a single stream leaving the 16 MIDI channels as the only way to control where it ends up and what it affects.
The "MIDI omni" default on tracks is a nuisance at times, and catches people out once they get to using a few synths at a time. Though I suppose it prevents lots of support calls from beginners who don't understand what MIDI ports and channels are so find routing things correctly to be a problem or they load up a synth and it "won't work".
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bvideo
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 13:18:07
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/08/14 16:54:37
Disclaimer: the following is just thinking out loud:
The wrinkle seems to be the [W] along with record enable & recording. If there were a bug, I'd guess it to be related to this wrinkle.
And it seems clear that the pitch bend events or envelopes were not recorded to other tracks, but at some point got echoed to the synths on those tracks, leaving behind some non-zero final values in the synths which could then be cleared by various means of sending pitch bend of '0'. (This is assuming those other tracks did not vary in pitch bend amount during any playback after the offending incident but operated as if they had been left with a single pitch bend offset.) If that's the case, did those synths not sound like they had shifted pitch during the possibly offending recording phase? If they did sound wrong then, it would be evidence of events weirdly leaking over to other tracks during [W] with recording. If they did not sound wrong then, the events must have been sent when the transport and all sound output was stopped, which would be even weirder.
Another weird thing is that those other tracks didn't receive a final '0' which would have been the most likely final event, given that the pitch wheel was most probably returned to 0 before [W] was cleared and recording was stopped.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 16:31:34
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tlw
Personally I record pitch bend, modulation and any other CCs into a track as MIDI data, not as automation.
All tracks that have received a pitch-bend instruction will have passed it on to their linked synth. The synth will then adjust its pitch by the amount sent by the instruction. They will not reset their pitch to "standard" unless told to do so.
There won't be anything in the events list because although the synth has been sent pitch bend data the data has not been recorded into the track. Just like when you play a software synth without recording the MIDI the synth responds to your playing and retains whatever state it was in when you stopped playing until you tell it otherwise.
The simplest answer to all of this is to use Sonar's ability to recognise different MIDI ports if you have more than one controller so a single controller doesn't control everything amd synths only see what a particular controler is sending. And/or to use MIDI channels to set each synth to a different channel and then send data from the controller on the channel the track you want to respond is set to.
And no, this isn't a work-round. It's just how MIDI works. No different to using MIDI controlled hardware really. And at least Sonar can keep the MIDI traffic from different sources separate, some (e.g. Logic) combine all incoming MIDI into a single stream leaving the 16 MIDI channels as the only way to control where it ends up and what it affects.
The "MIDI omni" default on tracks is a nuisance at times, and catches people out once they get to using a few synths at a time. Though I suppose it prevents lots of support calls from beginners who don't understand what MIDI ports and channels are so find routing things correctly to be a problem or they load up a synth and it "won't work".
what if i have more than 16 synth tracks?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 16:35:14
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bvideo
Disclaimer: the following is just thinking out loud:
The wrinkle seems to be the [W] along with record enable & recording. If there were a bug, I'd guess it to be related to this wrinkle.
And it seems clear that the pitch bend events or envelopes were not recorded to other tracks, but at some point got echoed to the synths on those tracks, leaving behind some non-zero final values in the synths which could then be cleared by various means of sending pitch bend of '0'. (This is assuming those other tracks did not vary in pitch bend amount during any playback after the offending incident but operated as if they had been left with a single pitch bend offset.) If that's the case, did those synths not sound like they had shifted pitch during the possibly offending recording phase? If they did sound wrong then, it would be evidence of events weirdly leaking over to other tracks during [W] with recording. If they did not sound wrong then, the events must have been sent when the transport and all sound output was stopped, which would be even weirder.
Another weird thing is that those other tracks didn't receive a final '0' which would have been the most likely final event, given that the pitch wheel was most probably returned to 0 before [W] was cleared and recording was stopped.
THIS sounds like what is happening here....
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Anderton
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/14 16:51:28
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You are running the most recent version of SONAR, yes? There have been some MIDI fixes of late.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/15 08:50:43
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Anderton
You are running the most recent version of SONAR, yes? There have been some MIDI fixes of late.
Hi Anderton, yes I am. So I was able to resolve my issue this morning by changing the channel of the track with the wheel movements to Channel 2. I never have to change the channel, but for some reason this time i do. Now the other synths aren't effected. Strange. Thank you everyone for trying to help me out!
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brundlefly
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/15 16:46:35
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You don't need to change the channel of the track you're recording, you just need to ensure you only enable Input Echo on the track currently being recorded. You can either manage Input Echo manually (my preference) or you can enable Always Echo Current MIDI Track in preferences, and make sure the armed track is the focused track when recording.
The reason I don't like the Auto Echo is that you cant leave a track input set to None, because 'Always Echo' (a.k.a. Auto Echo) will automatically change the input to All Inputs - Omni when the track gets focus.
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JayCee99
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/15 17:02:07
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SilverBlueMedallion
OK here is EXACTLY what I did...
1. I have multiple simple instrument tracks with notes recorded on to them. No wheel movements on any of them
2. I decided i wanted a wheel movement on one track so I simply clicked the "W" for "write automation" and armed the track. Then I simply moved the wheel while it was recording. I see the wheel movement drawing ONLY in the one track I did the wheel movements on.
How that wheel movement on track 1 is effecting other tracks is beyond me.
According to your last statement, this sounds like default behavior? Wheel movements will be captured on ALL tracks because of the MIDI-OMNI (all)? How come the events dont SHOW these wheel movements on those tracks?
Sonar should be smart enough to keep the wheel movements contained to the track I recorded it on.
Adding a little pitch bend shouldn't be that hard.
How about this. . . did you insert the synth with the "Enable MIDI Output" checkbox enabled? I don't know if that would do it, but if you have everything set to MIDI Omni then that output would technically be a MIDI input to all other tracks. A quick way to tell is to see if the synth on Track #1 is shown as an input option for the other trakcs. Just an idea.
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JayCee99
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/15 17:05:55
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SilverBlueMedallion
Anderton
You are running the most recent version of SONAR, yes? There have been some MIDI fixes of late.
Hi Anderton,
yes I am. So I was able to resolve my issue this morning by changing the channel of the track with the wheel movements to Channel 2.
I never have to change the channel, but for some reason this time i do. Now the other synths aren't effected.
Strange. Thank you everyone for trying to help me out!
I just read this so now my theory is, do you have your MIDI controller set as an ACT Control Surface? If so, do you have the control data being sent back to the controller? Maybe it sent the pitch bend data back to the controller and the controller is sending a pitch bend message then to all the other inputs? Just another wild speculation.
Sonar Platinum Audio Interface: Focusrite 18i8 ASIO Interface Keys: Korg Kronos 88, Alesis VI25 Windows 8.1 x64 Laptop, 8GB RAM, i7 CPU
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Major MIDI Problems
2016/08/21 00:32:04
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pwalpwal
SilverBlueMedallion
(what happened with imgr linking, it no longer shows the picture in the thread?)
you need to use the url of the image itself
hmmm i did.. not sure what you did to make it work.
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