Helpful ReplyLoudness before or after?

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bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/25 01:24:06 (permalink)
Hi greg and thanks again for responding and unloading some concepts that you use, I think that's really awesome, man. I was delighted to hear your opinion pertaining to the whole "box" thing. It seems as though many people that I run into, not just on here though, are very defensive of their methods which seem to be, more or less, traditional but also antiquated (they will hate me for that!) but nonetheless, I will not abandon my position. I think the same way as you do I think-do whatever you need to, when you need to.
 
Thanks for a more in-depth explanation of your quad trick. Believe me sir, I am strongly considering it. I am still weighing that against the method that I am currently using and trying to assess the overall advantages/disadvantages. All advice is valuable in my estimation and I appreciate what you have shared.
 
Thanks for sharing your drive info. I am much happier using the heavier setting but, since you know how I get all 4 guitar tracks, I do not want to continue to re-record them over and over because it isn't AC/DC, you know? So, whether right or wrong, I have decided to stick with less and say that's it. This, after much consternation as I am sure you have gone through the same thoughts with what you do.
 
By the way, I forgot to say, that I put a distortion stomp box on top of the 40% but have it turned down to about 12%. So, here we arrive at about the same settings. Interesting.
 
You know, if there other, none shredding, metal players reading this, they probably think we are goofy, worrying so much about drive and tone, but we know how important it is to what we do.
 
Thanks so much Greg, you have been a great source of contemporary assistance.  Say more if you want, but please don't feel as though you have to!
 
bob
 
 
 
Hi chucke B, thanks for everything, man. I also listen very closely to what you have to say (as I will Greg too) because I think you guys are doing, more or less, what I am doing, or trying to anyway.
 
I know your insights are gold chucke, and you are right-I do need some feedback on my stuff-no doubt. I would love for you and Greg to hear what I do because you would understand immediately I think. I would imagine that others, who do other kinds of music, would be valuable as a generalized consensus sounding board with the "its too loud/I can't hear the snare etc." thing. Forgive me, "others"!
 
I would be most interested in having you hear it for now because I think you have good judgment. Greg too if he is interested. I guess that you are talking about uploading this to the "Songs" category under "Community". I will look into this very soon. I will have to find out if I upload a Wav. or other, and a few more things.
 
Thanks so much chucke, and thanks for considering me to be worthy, it means a lot dude.
 
bob
#31
chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/25 07:16:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/03/01 15:31:44
You have a great attitude Bob. Its easy to reply and help out people who have great attitudes.
Not sure if you know but Soundcloud offers a free account to upload your songs to. there are a few others out there but I find Soundcloud one of the better ones. you can share on Facebook, twitter, exc.
 
No need to reply to this comment, just giving you a heads up on Soundcloud. Peace man.

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#32
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/25 14:16:25 (permalink)
Oh believe me....its always a process!
 
I actually started the whole recording gig sometime around 1998 or so....  on a very old version of cakewalk lol.
 
Initially it was just a means to record my own band, and we did release a few albums.  One was released "nationally" in 2004, and still for sale at all the normal outlets, but we never got the label backing to become anybody famous.  So long story short.... we kept plugging away and eventually built a dedicated studio as a band, and were recording other folks also to help fund the whole ordeal.
 
We(the band) finally parted ways around 2012 Id say and I stayed out of the game all together for about 4 years.  the last piece I worked on I did with sonar 6 producer edition which was probably released around the mid 2000's or slightly earlier.
 
Ive since gotten back into it and bought into sonar platinum just recently, so its like familiar.....  yet learning all over again with all the new options and widgets available.  experienced newbie, if you will.
 
about the music...  I'd love to hear what you're working on.  So however you want to go about that would be cool.  As suggested by Chuck, soundcloud is a great option.  You could put something up there and link it and I'd be happy to check it out, and Im sure others would be as well
 
 
 
 
 
#33
mudgel
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/26 07:19:31 (permalink)
I've enjoyed following this thread. Thanks guys.

On the subject of In The Box
I think for the project or home studio it's likely the most practical, but the big studios still have stonkin' big desks, and they aren't all digital. There's a lot with warm analog front ends. What I'd give to have the room (and money) for a nice old Neve or SSL desk.

There's got to be a reason why every boy and his dog creates plugins that emulate all the great pieces of analog kit. Sorry that's just my interruption on that bit of a side track mentioned earlier.

What it also points to is the importance of what goes in. That is, concerning the subject of loudness, it's so very important to make sure that you capture the cleanest and biggest (relatively to the desired overall desired sound) sound possible. I always look toward using the least amount of meddling and interference with the original sound that I can get away with. Also the arrangement is very important in carving out a sonic residence for each sound. Like a house, every room has its place and it shouldn't detract from another room, rather it should enhance the appeal of the whole house. When you take care of those things the result comes about with a lot less hassle and your use of plugins becomes a joy rather than a frustration because the overall sound is not pleasing and your work becomes repair of things that really needed to be done at the beginning not the mix or mastering stage.

Sorry if I've rambled a bit but I thought the discussion needed to include this material.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#34
Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/26 07:38:41 (permalink)
I've helped mix an album at a big studio around here, they had a lot of outboard, Pultecs, Manley Massive Passive, Decapitators, LA2As etc., plugged into a giant digitally controlled analog SSL desk. What struck me the most was how much easier it was to get stuff to "blend" without becoming mushy. Like, I tend to find it pretty tricky to get the kickdrum and bass balance perfect, and getting the right amount of punch vs sustain. In there, the tech didn't even use much processing on them, just running them through the desk together with some mild eq seemed to solve a lot of the issues I have. He said as much to me too, that with plugins you can get a great sound but you often have to fight with the material a lot more.
 
I'm sure a lot of that is skill with the tools, and I'm just me while he works there full-time, but it was surprising to me how good the console sounded without twisting any knobs or adding any of those famous processors.
#35
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/27 01:19:18 (permalink)
Hi everyone once again, and as always, thanks so much for all your bits of knowledge. Where would I be, in all this, without all you guys chiming in? I'd be way back to where I wondered just what, exactly, was a "plug-in". I remember the dude who talked me into buying Sonar 3 at Guitar Center saying something about "you just use plug-ins" and I said, "Oh, of course!". A little fun history for you-as a small measure of payment for your services!
 
Hey, chucke, thanks man, I see that's what you and many others do so that's good enough for me! Please let yourself out here unless you don't want to; I shall not refuse your assistance!
 
Hey, Greg...that's a wonderful story, man and I appreciate you sharing it with me (and others?). That is about the time that I ran into a guy, like you, who had just put his first record out and by the same means (not sure if it was Sonar or not because I was so completely ignorant of the whole software-based recording method). I had already retired from the heavy metal business because I knew that I couldn't keep up with the unbelievable expenses in hardware. I had quite a collection but everything had or was switching over to digital and my dreams of being like "Alain and Paul" were vanishing. (see if anyone knows who these guys are-for fun!)
Anyway, for anyone enjoying their coffee and reading this, I asked this guy a ton of questions but he was very reluctant to say much. Fast forward about 5-7 years, and I am buying the aforementioned software-my beginning of my descent into you-know-where.
 
I think its great that things have turned out as they have for you and will find a way to let yo know when I have uploaded so you can hear. I guess they have PM's here? Assuming that's alright.
 
 
Your knowledge has been very helpful because I can always say, "Now, what did Greg say about how to do this?" Same with all you guys-I actually copy and paste everyone's answers down into a simple text file and I also actually re-read this list of answers very often. Hope there wasn't a charge...
 
 
Thanks Greg
 
 
 
 
Hi mudgel, and thanks for reading and joining in with your knowledge! I do not consider your words to be rambling by any means, so thanks. I see those videos where Yoad or someone else is just casually making a few adjustments and without the look of frustrating on his face. Why would he be frustrated? He had a million bucks worth of desk in front of him. I am beginning to think that the desk is pretty much the whole thing, really. I play around with the sims and it takes forever to find what I want and he, and his experience, just wrap the whole thing up in about an hour or two. Yeah, sometimes it takes him a WHOLE day. Not taking a thing away from him or his contemporaries- they have earned it all. But, I get your point...wouldn't it be grand if we somehow had all that equipment? I am going through my list of aunts and uncles-maybe there's a really wealthy one in there that I over-looked!
 
Oh, and your "house" analogy...gold! That's it exactly. I spend an awful lot of time making repairs-kind of low-rent, if you know what I mean.
 
I have recently seen how important it is to begin and end with very clean recordings and usage of proper plugs. I thank you for your advice and for your comments!
 
 
 
 
 
Yeah Sanderx, how awesome that would be to twist those knobs, man! But, at least you were right there, you know? More than I can say by a long way. I have been involved, a little mind you, with some live consoles but I was mostly just the gopher whom they would let take a peak. Just as long as I didn't get in the way! I am fairly certain that, with all that high-dollar stuff, they progressed really quickly. Then, throw in a professional engineer at the wheel, and the whole thing was possibly wrapped up by sundown.
 
Editorial: (for fun-which we all need)
 
Still-how much longer can they effectively hold off the software...the home musicians who are just as good or better than the "insiders" (studio musicians)...digital distribution...and whatever else you want to throw in here. My opinion, which is surely fit for a different discussion (but I will still allude to it here, anyway) is that the sun is going down rapidly. Yes, they still have "loudness" over us (not some of you though!) but the very next batch of kids won't be impressed by that nearly so much. I have experienced this with certainty already. I have tested a small number of them and the "loudness" factor doesn't seem to mean that much to them after the initial "super-blast" hits their ears. I have actually seen many of them immediately reach to turn it down. But, I do digress.
 
Thanks for your input Sanderxpander, I do appreciate any attention from you learned one's
 
 
Thanks everybody!
 
bob
#36
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/27 10:32:19 (permalink)
About the consoles...  it reminds me of when I first started playing guitar.  My first guitar was a peavey patriot and a gorilla practice amp.
 
My first "pedal" I eventually got a boss ME30 multi effects deal.  It was the greatest thing in the world based on the ears of an inexperienced player.  I for one wasnt all that talented at that point, and my only point of reference was that gorilla amp.
 
I could not understand why people put so much value on tube amps.  To me it was like...  I can do anything I want with this pedal.  Your amp only does one thing.  Whats so great about it?
 
Long story short as I got better.... the limitations of the 'tone' of digital stuff, especially almost 20 years ago, became more and more obvious.  The first time I jacked into a 'real' amp it was like "oh..  I get it now".  I eventually invested in some real amps and it wasnt til much later that software started being able to compete.  
 
The console stuff, and other outboard gear, is no different.  As you get better at the mixing and mastering thing and as you really study your work vs the work of others, that little something that is missing in a production done all in the box gets more and more obvious.  Its not just warmth.  Things just sound more real and three dimensional when they are captured through some of that coveted gear.
 
When you are in the early stages of recording and you start to feel like you got a handle on things and really have a good product....  you wont initially understand the notion of taking out a second mortgage to get a really good desk.  Just like I thought I could slay the world with an Me 30 and who needed a marshall lol.
 
Eventually you will get really good at hearing what all that outboard gear has to offer.
 
That said... I'm not criticizing anyone who doesnt have that sort of gear.  I do not have the big expensive SSL desks or anything like that either for example.  Im mostly in the box, and I hope that by the time I theoretically would be capable of taking full advantage of a desk like that....  hopefully the software has come around to the point where its darn near just as good.  I do think its already getting there 
#37
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/28 00:22:35 (permalink)
Hi Greg, and thanks for even more from you on this subject. Firstly, there's no way that you actually did take out a second mortgage, right? If you did, then you are a bigger man than me my friend! Hail Greg! I won't ask what your wife (the enemy of all musicians) had to say about this.
 
But, while I have not considered the 2nd mortgage, I have tried to figure out what it would take to get all that gear. Outside of being a multimillionaire, I reckon it would take a group effort and maybe some local (or not) investors, and they would not be inclined to "join up" without promise of certain and immediate returns. So, now we have arrived at the mindless babble that accounts for pop music, or, back to square one.
 
Unless I somehow become involved with the imaginary group above (which I won't-not my style), I guess I will be waiting for all the software to catch up.  You know, you have a really good way of stating things. I understand it fully and agree with what you have said. The further you go, the more you see that the plug-ins can't quite do the job, that is to say, not to the degree that the real gear does do the job. The 3-D part I am currently finding to be especially true as I have yet to find a way to have that really full sound, no matter how many imagers I use. I think, "How in the heck are they achieving this booming, everywhere sound?" I think it is what you have said, its just the inherent nature of the hardware itself. No amount of plugs will create this sound. But, I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along here and tells me otherwise!
 
Thanks for your insight, Greg. For the record, my first BASS guitar was a Peavey and it well illustrates your point. First real guitar was a Kramer-which I still have but have put it in semi-retirement.
 
 
that little something that is missing in a production done all in the box gets more and more obvious.

 
Its quotable, man, believe me.
 
bob
 
 
#38
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/28 08:43:10 (permalink)
Hah maybe I wasnt clear but I definitely have not taken out a 2nd mortgage for gear lol.  Anything I have is stuff thats been slowly accumulated over the last 2 decades, and I don't have much outboard recording gear to speak of.   I have a couple gig worthy pieces of gear for live sound, but not the type of "expensive" things were talking about that Id put in a recording chain.  I'm on a budget like most everyone else lol
 
For recording, my main interface is a roland studio capture, which uses the popular roland VS preamps and works great with sonar.  They are really nice, clean and strong sounding preamps more so than a character building type of preamp.
 
Down the road I'm considering one or two GOOD analog preamps and a good A to D converter.  These two elements alone can add a lot of magic.    At minimum, when I am multi tracking each element to build the project, I could run vox and guitar and bass through it one at a time.  I'd still be in the box, but I'd just have a little more of a hefty analog signal chain on the input to the DAW.  I'd still have to capture drums with the studio capture due to the # of inputs required, but it could be worth it.
 
#39
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/01 04:41:18 (permalink)
Hi Greg! I should curse you for leading me down the road of destruction...A to D converters...but I won't because I always knew that there had to be some achievable way to improve without going completely insane and spending every possible dollar you ever had. I never really looked that far into it before because I assumed that it was something out of reach, but it sounds as if you have formulated a plan. Now I will have to look into this but it won't be easy because other than a basic comprehension of what you are talking about, I got nothin'. I have to admit though, it sounds most intriguing. You don't have to go any further if you don't want to Greg-I have really enjoyed everything that you have shared-but if you DO wish to, then what is the name of one of these A/D converters that you are talking about? And how expensive is it? Answer if you can but if not then thanks for everything, man!
 
bob
#40
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/01 14:14:39 (permalink)
Hop on youtube and look at some vids with Andrew Scheps.
 
He is an incredibly accomplished mixer/engineer who's background for the last couple decades plus includes a whos who of pop, metal, hip hop, and more.
 
he has recently transitioned to 100% in the box mixing and does a lot of videos explaining why and what the benefits are.  He also Talks at length that he doesn't feel he has lost a thing.
 
BUT...  he still has that great quality incoming signal chain.  He has loads of gear and can use all of it(or as much as he wants) if folks record with him.  Or if he has only been hired to mix, chances are anything captured would have been captured at another great studio with all the fixins.   The right mic's into the right preamps, into the right eq's and compressors and converters, only then to be captured by the computer.  
 
 A to D converters is just something I threw out there as part of the explanation.  
 
think of any interface you would use to get instruments into your computer.  Whether its a unit costing around 100 bucks with 2 input channels,  or the multi channel roland studio capture I use.  The things that they have in common is they both have at least one preamp if not more, and both capture your audio and convert it and sent it to the computer via USB(or firewire or thunderbolt etc).
 
Obviously that unit and its quality is going to have some impact as well.  So if down the road you were to buy something like an avalon U5 preamp, some model of a coveted rack EQ, and a real LA2A compressor(just an example) for your incoming signal chain....  the last thing you'd want to do is connect it to your computer using a 79 dollar USB interface.  Know what I mean?  But you do need to get it into the computer somehow.
 
So, whatever interface/converter you use to get the audio into the computer should be capable of preserving that awesome signal chain you just built, and getting it to the computer in tact.  Thats when you start to consider the higher quality interfaces and different options for converters, and there are a lot out there that people like.    
 
At the end of the day I think it all comes down to headroom.  When you have an instrument plugged directly into the interface, or a mic plugged directly into the interface....  your signal can only be as hot as the digital world allows.  Break that threshold and you get some ugly noise.  Ya cant exactly overdrive your digital gear to get some extra punch and saturation
 
Analog has more headroom, and often it starts to sound better when you drive the headroom.  The way it starts to saturate can be pleasing.  All that volume and headroom and maybe saturation is probably the thing that helps make an analog signal chain sound a little more 'real' vs digital which can sound a little flatter.
 
so long story short, eventually I would like to upgrade with more good front end equipment.  Slowly but surely hah!
 
console emulation pluginss and harmonic exciter plugins and things like that can do great things towards simulating all of this.  Getting better by the year
#41
E-Dub
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/01 14:22:25 (permalink)
Biggest mixing lesson in 2016 for me was to not use a limiter in my master bus. It destroys all the previous work I have done. This made me concentrate on my tracks which was the best thing that could have happened.
#42
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/01 15:08:52 (permalink)
Good advice about the limiting!  Or really.....its good advice about mixing.  Depends on how you wanna look at it right!
 
Dont take this as me telling you what to do, because who am I to judge what works for someone else right, but just to share my own approach.  I do integrate limiting as a safety measure as long as I can integrate it non destructively.  Plus it gives me some visual confirmation that I'm on the right track.
 
I like it as a last step to make sure everything is where it needs to be and the final result truly is not peaking beyond -1(to avoid the risk of clipping if somebody converts to MP3, which often can increase the peaks).
 
But I agree...  if you are forced to squish it a lot to get the volume you need....  there is a problem in the mix.  What you want to do is ultimately what you described.  You want to focus on the mix so that any form of extreme compression/limiting isnt needed.  This is where a limiter starts to give me some visual confirmation that Im on the right track.
 
my last step is to listen to source material(from a CD, not like youtube or anything) to gauge loudness of a 'pro' record, and then add a limiter and use the limiter to bring my stuff around that level by ear.  I'm not watching meters yet.  Im just trying to get it to audibly sound as loud.  Once it sounds as loud, then I pay more attention to meters.
 
What I hope to see is that the limiter is barely working.  On the biggest peaks of the song, it grabs it and attenuates maybe 2-3 DB tops, and thats only those peaks.  But most of the time, short of those peaks, I dont even see any attenuation.  It gets a little louder....but its not constantly slamming the ceiling.  Thats what I want to see.
 
If the limiter is constantly riding the track and I constantly see some degree of attenuation happening, with even more at the peaks, then the end result is probably gonna sound too squished.  At that point I do exactly what you said and go back to the mix.
 
On the flip side....  if merely adding a limiter (without even pulling down the threshold) causes it to start attenuating like crazy.....then I know the mix is already too hot.   I mix so that my master bus shows -4 or slightly less at the peaks
 
I guess its a balancing act of hearing with your ears that the mix is full enough and loud enough, and seeing with the various meters that you arent doing anything too extreme in any one step to get there.
 
There isnt any magic in limiting though, which is why I say if you get great results without it....  dont feel like you need to change based on my approach 
 
 
#43
pwalpwal
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/01 16:06:03 (permalink)
similar, i always have a limiter on the master for safety reasons, but if i see it working, i back something off in the mix

just a sec

#44
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/02 11:05:00 (permalink)
Hi guys, it looks like a fresh, good batch of wisdom has poured on it there-thanks! Hey, Greg, thanks for the pointer, I will do exactly that (checking out Scheps) when I get out of here. Yay! More videos! He sounds like someone I need to study though. I thank you for letting me on that.
After last time, I just happened to have gotten a Sweetwater catalog in and I went directly to the audio interface section. I tried to learn what I needed to learn but you basically already summed up my problem I think. I am using that cheap interface that you mentioned but didn't think how it could be holding me back. I spent so much energy on everything else like the plugs and mixing techniques that I over-looked something so simple-pretty stupid actually. I don't need an interface that records a whole band at once because I pretty much am the band and can just record each part myself. That's probably mostly what caused me to over-look the obvious. All of you guys who are trying to help probably assumed that I was using one of these Focusrites or something. Sorry about that!
 
Now, if anyone has a recommendation for the interface that I might need, I am all ears. I guess this means that I will have to re-record everything. I am sincerely hoping that the new and better interface will really make a good difference and the re-recording will be well worth it. I agree with you (now that I have studied up on it more) that its about the headroom. I wonder just how noticeable the additional headroom will be? This definitely seems to be where my main problem lies. Odd, it isn't the more complicated stuff that's tripping me up, but an interface. I appreciate all your input about limiting and stuff but I actually have a decent handle on that if you can believe it. Chucke helped by sharing one of his chains and keeping the master clean and that pulled stuff into focus better for me. I have actually just gone through the "back to the mix" phase and realize the importance of getting all that as right as I can. The magic limiter has its limitations!
 
Hey, Greg (if you are still here!) are you telling me that you can get your stuff as loud as the metal records from around 1995 to 2015? That's great if you can. So far, I am still considerably below. Its too low-not too bad, but just not hot enough to stand close to the metal stuff in the last 10 years or so. Yep, now we arrived back at the start!
 
Thanks everyone, for all your help-I am a new man! I feel like I have just had a semester at a music engineering school.
 
Thanks for your input E-Dub and pwalpwal!
 
Please feel free to add anything else if you have it!
 
bob
 
#45
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/02 13:53:39 (permalink)
Hey man.  So as far as loudness goes, yes I can get them as loud as any modern mix over the last couple decades.  BUT... I dont want to relate that to the interface itself too much.  Just curious, but what interface specifically do you use?  Now on one hand yes, a good one is a good one and it can make life easier.
 
But on the other hand, the interface itself shouldnt affect the whole loudness piece.  So I dont want to give you the impression that you need to go spend money because a newer and better audio interface is going to change the overall loudness of your mix.  Depending on what you have, and depending on what you theoretically switch to....  it often can make your source material sound better, but loudness itself is in the mix and the master.
 
My first suggestion would be to keep working at it little by little until you can achieve similar volume to other recorded sources without having to smash the life out of it with a limiter.  When you get to that point where you can create the loudness, then you can study quality more.  You may notice too much noise, or maybe the stuff ran through the interface is lacking a certain richness or depth and overall sound quality.
 
Thats where a good interface with nice preamps helps.  It wont automatically make it louder....but ideally it will induce less noise and capture the full sound in a way that makes it sound more 'real'.
 
Now as far as interfaces do go....as I said...  I use a roland studio capture.  It has a ton of inputs, and 12 mic inputs with preamps.  I needed around 12 preamps to record acoustic drums multi mic'd.  It uses the roland VS preamps that a lot of folks know and love.  I think they are great for rock and metal because they are not heavily colored.  Color is often what people want, but for rock and metal, its nice to capture a pretty transparent sound I think.
 
Now...if you want the same tech and same preamps...they sell it in smaller versions.  The roland octa capture and roland quad capture(quad capture being the most affordable).  Same preamps and features etc but in a smaller package with less inputs.  I like the roland stuff additionally because it integrates really well with sonar.
 
There are other good ones out there, so dont feel like the roland is the only one that works.  It just happens to be what I use right now.
 
Ive also used presonus and M audio stuff with good success.  I like everything the roland has to offer the most right now, but both presonus and M audio were also capable of good sound quality.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
#46
Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/02 15:23:52 (permalink)
It would be wise to do a little research about any specific interface you'd be looking to buy. E.g. the Roland/Edirol devices often come up here on the forum as a source of problems. I don't own one so I can't say what the issue is or if it's universal (probably not) but it's worth knowing.
#47
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/02 17:48:57 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
It would be wise to do a little research about any specific interface you'd be looking to buy. E.g. the Roland/Edirol devices often come up here on the forum as a source of problems. I don't own one so I can't say what the issue is or if it's universal (probably not) but it's worth knowing.



I have already gotten a few questions about which roland, which copy of windows, and which version of sonar I have cause folks tell me the same.  There are reported issues.
 
I have windows 10 home, roland studio capture with whatever the newest drivers are, and the most recent version of sonar.
 
utterly no issues so I cant personally speak on whatever issues others have seen.  I can only wonder if its related to older versions/updates.  Certainly there has to be something to the issues people have reported.....but I do suspect it may have been earlier software/hardware versions just because of how smooth everything seems to work for me
 
windows 10 especially wasnt kind to a lot of stuff when it first came around 
#48
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/03 10:52:13 (permalink)
Hi guys, thanks for your replies again! I have always used Line6 UX1 and 2. I have a few of them because I got them at a good price. This was years ago and apparently they are no longer made. Good thing I have a few of them...or is it?
I have never had even one problem-ever-with this unit, so I never thought to look around because I was happy. I am still happy with them unless, of course, they are part of the problem. It isn't necessarily that I have any problem so much as it is that I don't want to be missing out on something that I need to have, or ought to have.
 
I did not think that the "superior" interface was necessarily something magical because I knew that it really was not. But, again, if it is something that is hurting me, then I need to address that particular area. If you wish, you can let me know what your opinion of the Line6 UX1 and 2 are because I just am not into the technical specs type stuff, although I probably should be! Is it your opinion that what I am using is "below standards" so to speak? Or, am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Is it not that big of a thing? I don't notice anything weak or sub-par about the interface but then I wouldn't because I don't have anything to compare it to, do I?  Please let me know what you think, if you have the time.
 
As of late last night, I made a master which is about the same volume...loudness...whatever, as the "pros". It is a bit harsh in comparison. Not distorted really just something I don't know yet about how to tame the overall quality of it. I think that I am still missing something but its not so much loudness now as it is a harshness. I am using a fairly standardized HM EQ scheme but it still seems a bit rough. Back to the videos!
 
You know, my first keyboard, going way back was a Juno 1 and I loved it. In fact, I seldom bought anything other than Roland except for Korg, which I also loved. Still do. So, if it turns out that I really do need to upgrade to a better interface, it almost certainly will be the Octa or Quad because I already had my eye on them. With your recommendation and also SXP's words of wisdom, I shall proceed carefully. Thanks guys for your assistance on this!
 
Have a great one!
 
bob
#49
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/03 17:12:35 (permalink)
Hi again Bob!
 
My advice for right now is to stick with what you have.  Now I know that some folks do have some distaste for those units, but I can tell you I have used line6 stuff extensively in the past.  Including an interface (maybe the same one you are using).
 
Can you do better?  Yes.  Will it completely destroy the quality of your work and cause the issues you are currently outlining?  not quite.
 
I think getting to the point where you can produce comparable loudness, and also good quality mixes that dont unnaturally reach out and grab you in any sort of bad way(like the harshness) is a way to start.  Once you have the technique down and your ears figured out to be able to produce stuff that sounds relatively loud enough and is pleasing to listen to....  your game will naturally elevate as your gear does.  The harshness problem can exist no matter the interface.
 
Especially since you say you are recording all in the box, and you have a smaller interface.... at minimum I have to imagine you are programming the drums and maybe other elements since you arent recording acoustic instruments.  In that regard, the interface wouldnt be contributing to any harshness or lack of loudness in those programmed elements.
 
How do you EQ?  I've been right where you are and still end up there sometimes.  For me, it ends up being a byproduct of solo'ing instruments and EQ'ing til they sound great all by themselves, and then not really paying enough attention to how they fit in the mix.
 
Like for example if you are a drummer..  you focus your but off on the drums and trying to make those cymbals really shimmer and shine.  You eq to really make the snare crack and the kick and toms slap through.  When you are done working on the drums....  you end up with something you think you like, but its actually pretty 'hifi' sounding in the mix.  Has too much bite from like 2k to 4k.  Sounds great when you audition solo with no context.  Its a little bitey in the context of a mix, but you feel like you dont want to undo those EQ moves cause you could have sworn that they sounded great lol.
 
Its kind of an ego thing where you have to relinquish yourself to the idea that everything has to sit in a place, rather than trying to highlight your favorite instrument in such a way that it really makes them stand out.
 
The frequency that makes things jump out and be heard.....are those same upper midrange frequencies that in high doses can also make things sound shrill and given listener fatigue.
 
another problem frequency is somewhere between 350 and 500......even as high as 800 HZ.  It can make things sound a little tubby and round into nasaly around 800 for lack of a better term.
 
Its common practice to scoop here a little to clean up the instruments.  When you watch people EQ and what not, its like they almost always treat here a little.  So you probably naturally adopt it.
 
the problem with digitally created, and often digitally recorded stuff....  is that it usually is NOT so thick and round in this area.
 
You pull those frequencies because its habit and you just think you need to in order to get that midrange mud out of the way, but in reality...  the digital instruments and digitally recorded instruments already dont have much presence here. 
 
In effect what you end up doing is reducing too much body.  And at that point it is addition by subtraction.
 
You make the upper mids bite too much and sound shrill because you have taken away too much low mid.
 
Dont take any of this personally.  Like I said I have direct experience with sabotaging my own stuff doing some of the same things lol
 
if you go back through the mix and find that you are adding a lot in the 2-4khz area to a lot of intruments, and removing a lot between 300-800 hz....  cut your eq moves in half.  If you added 3 db of 2khz..  change it to  adding 1.5 db
 
if you subtracted 3db at 350 hz, change it to subtracting 1.5
 
that alone will round things out.
 
 
 
#50
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/04 06:06:46 (permalink)
Hello Greg and thanks once again for all your wisdom. I see you have already gone through some of this which is comforting. I know that many of these readers have done the same. It is a slow but sure process I believe. I am definitely much "better" than I used to be, but of course, I want more. Its just a goal perhaps or part of a journey maybe. I can do lots of other things but I am focused on this one, probably because it is the most challenging.
 
Thanks for what you have said regarding the interfaces. Unless you really had something to say about going to a  better interface, I wasn't going to change anyway. I really like this unit for its simplicity and ease of operation and like I said, it has never failed in 10 years or so. I think that you are probably right about focusing on getting my mixes to sound "right" and not overly worrying about the guitar's loudness/thickness/so on. I don't think that anyone would ever say, "Hey...wait a minute! Is that a crappy, sub-par interface that I am hearing?"  It sounds fine to me and now you have said that it wouldn't necessarily contribute to my situation anyway. I think that's more or less what you were saying, anyway. I consider this to be solved, at least for the foreseeable future. No one else has stepped forward to argue against your position and I think you are the person who probably best knows what type of stuff I do, so I say all is well and thanks for your answer on this particular thing.
 
Yes, I lost my drummer years ago and just decided to go ahead and pursue this whole "in the box" thing to the fullest. He actually did vanish and I do not know what became of him. He was the best drummer I have ever known and I think that maybe the big G got him because he was running some shady mail-order type businesses. But, of course, this is just a side-story for anyone who is reading this.
 
So, after programming for years on Reason, I made the decision to switch over to Session Drummer because Reason was not known for their samples. I still run Reason underneath because they have so many other cool things, but not their primary drums stuff.  It wasn't too difficult to switch over because I have been programming the drums, along with the aforementioned drummer, for years. I am pleased with the overall sound and have no complaints except for the time it takes to do the programming. But, the beauty there is, I can do whatever I want so long as I don't mind the expense-time.
 
I appreciate all your knowledge on EQing. I try to be sort of minimalist on the EQ because I think that one can get hopelessly lost in a quagmire of equalization fairly easily. You are right about something: the internet videos do teach you some things but also make everything, I think, more confusing than it needs to be. I am sure that some of my problems are inherent in the EQing but is this not somewhat up to the ears of the engineer or mixer? Once you roll-off the lowest and highest, is it not a matter of what the client (which I don't have!) or the listener thinks is best? At this point, do we not get into, " Well, Pensado says always do this and Yoad says you HAVE to do this"? I mean, who do you listen to when there are similar but opposing views on mixing?" I am thinking that it comes down to whoever is mixing it and whoever will suffer if the decision is wrong. If you have ever heard a Sex Pistols album, you get the sense that there wasn't any EQing done at all and yet they have sold millions of copies with few people discerning  this possible fact.
 
I will play around with more settings but I think I may need to look (listen) more closely to the body. I also appreciate what you had to say about the digital stuff being kind of weak anyway. It is an area that I think I may be not getting correct, and that would be a big area to not get correct. That will take some effort to try to figure out how the digital stuff needs to be adjusted beyond, possibly, what I think. Good advice, thanks.
 
You know, Greg, I just realized recently that I have a hissing type sound coming out of my projects-even when I have not hit play. I see that I have a gain occurring here and there. I believe that this may have started after I started using CLA plug-ins. The Sonar plug-ins don't do this. Do you know what this is and could it be responsible for some of my volume issues? Is this normal? If you don't know, its cool, just thought that maybe you would have some idea about this.
 
Thanks for everything Greg, I have come even further thanks to you!
 
 
 
bob
#51
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/04 07:15:28 (permalink)
Hey man.   Does the CLA stuff you are using have analog modeling, and if so, does it have a "noise" setting?
 
some of them do have a button to specifically flip "noise" on or off.  It is often labeled as 'noise', or sometimes its just a switch/button that says 'analog'.  Kicking that off in the plugin will eliminate the line level noise that they modeled in.  The analog character is still there, but the hiss that stacks from track to track will go away if your plugin lets you turn it off.
 
as far as who to listen to..  For a while there, for me it was all about finding producers/engineers/mixers and ultimately bands who tend to produce a sound that I like.  And the next step was to try to follow whatever advice they put out there to the letter and see if I can at least come reasonably close to replicating the same type of feel/sound as something that they did.  I'd try to make instrument tones sound the same way.  Id try to layer them the same way that they recorded them.  Id then try to learn whatever I could about 'how' they recorded and mixed everything(if info was available).  
 
I guess I figured I just needed to try and learn how to do some things that are "proven to work" before trying to trust my own ears in deciding what works.  Kinda no different than when guys used to want to figure out how to create the Eddie Van Halen guitar tone.  Lots of guys started off trying to figure out how to capture his tone, but ultimately developed their own voice.  In short...  Id start by listening to both guys you mention and trying the suggestions of both guys you mention(and more)
 
as you mess around with different sounds and different approaches and follow different bits of advice from different guys......eventually you come to realize that they are all right lol.  At any given time, what is best for one mix might not be what is best for another.  You might find that sometimes Yoad's suggestion works, where other times Pensados suggestion works....and sometimes neither works and you just have to let your own ears decide what works best in a particular instance.  Then you can be the one saying "heres what to do if you want your XXXX to sound like this in a mix"
 
It really all is just about practice.  Learn as many techniques as you can and try them all.  Some will really work for you, and others wont.  Even approaches that work great for somebody else sometimes wont work for you. In those instances, dont be afraid to discard those techniques that just arent working.  That would be yet another mistake I learned the hard way with time.  Trying to force things that I think I need to be doing because somebody else does it and does it well.  You get it in your head that "if pensado says I need to do it this way...  then I need to do it this way".   So naturally, I'd hang onto the approach for too long just because I felt like I was "failing" if I couldnt make it work as well as another guy.  Its better to not feel like there are any rules, and your best bet is to give yourself the freedom to try whatever you want and give yourself the freedom to keep what you like and get rid of what you dont like no matter if somebody else out there thinks its important
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#52
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/05 07:22:32 (permalink)
Hi Greg, thanks again, I think you are a pretty sharp dude on this stuff or it seems that way to me, anyway. You seem to know a little bit (or a lot) about all these things, which is awesome.
Thanks for your advice on the CLA. I looked everywhere and found nothing like what you said. I switched everything I could find and it made no difference until I just switched it off. When I did that, then it killed the hiss. I guess I will have to keep trying to figure this out or maybe learn to live with it. It isn't all that noticeable but it surely is hurting the sound to some degree I would think. Maybe I am driving the plugs too hard or using too many of them. I wonder if they are really any better than the Sonar plugs anyway. The main thing I like about them is that they quickly dial-in certain presets; that's really the most useful part of his stuff. I really appreciate your explanation about what's causing the hissing. That will likely help me to narrow down some thoughts on how to stop it, assuming, I can stop it. But, either way, thanks.
 
I also appreciate all your views on mixing and just everything really. That kind of help is invaluable. Its far better than watching a bunch of videos although that has its place too. I have kind of come to the same reasoning as you mentioned: take what you need to from whoever you need to, throw out what you don't need and mix in your own ideologies about it all. I think that's what you are saying. But, still, that's not that easy to do because there are so many ways, apparently. These well-experienced people have a massive knowledge-base to draw from and I don't yet. That's what puts the huge bucks in their pockets, I know. I like the way you think and it is about the same way I do to, so surely I will improve with more time.
 
Thanks a ton, Greg
 
bob
#53
Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/05 10:30:46 (permalink)
Which CLA plugs specifically are you talking about? The compressors (CLA2A, CLA3A, CLA76) have a noise/hum switch that lets you switch on 50Hz or 60Hz mains hum or turn it off. I don't think the CLA "multi" plugins, like CLA Guitars/Bass/Vocals have such a thing. It's worth noting that most distortion/overdrive algorithms like in CLA Guitars would add some amount of noise. It
If it's mainly bothering you in the quiet parts you could use a gate. Otherwise I don't think it's worth worrying about, any real amp you would record at higher gain would add at least as much noise.
#54
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/06 03:44:41 (permalink)
Thanks for your response SXP, I appreciate it. Yes, it is everyone of those that you mentioned. I went back again and checked out what you said and it did make some difference when I switched the 60hz off. Its still there but only about half as loud as it was when switched to 50 or 60 hz. I thank you for your insight about the distortion/overdrive algorithms, I hadn't thought of it like that but it makes perfect sense. It doesn't bother me so much as it does wondering if it will bother someone else. I could care less, really. I am still trying to follow most of the rules about digital production and it helps when someone like you says things like this, so thanks for speaking up on this. I wondered if the big "pros" had some method for eliminating a hum or hiss, if they even had one, and I guess you might be saying that they would use a gate. Good enough for me!
 
Thanks SXP
 
bob
#55
Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/06 09:27:12 (permalink)
Strange that you still have noise when they're off. Or at least I think that makes them silent for me. You said it goes away completely when you switch the plugin off? Or do you mean muting the track? Is it possible that you have more of them somewhere else in the project?

And yeah noise can sometimes be treated well with a gate. Preferably you'd have as clean a recording as possible and use as noiseless gear as possible but there are limits. Hiss and hum shouldn't generally be a problem in a modern setup with at least decent hardware. The most I get is when I mic an amp and/or use my Fender Rhodes. Both vintage technologies :)
#56
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/08 05:14:59 (permalink)
Hello again sxp, yes when I switch it off, the noise stops-not when I mute. I don't think i have more somewhere else, I mean, wouldn't I see these? But, it is as if there are more somewhere else but I sure don't see them. Thanks for your advice and I will keep on trying to figure it out but also, like you said, I think I won't worry too much about the noise.
 
bob
#57
bitflipper
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/08 12:38:39 (permalink)
I believe track mute occurs before the fx bin, so if a plugin is generating noise/hum, muting the track or clip would not affect the noise.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#58
chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/08 15:28:12 (permalink)
bitflipper
I believe track mute occurs before the fx bin, so if a plugin is generating noise/hum, muting the track or clip would not affect the noise.


I believe they are after.



 
I had ground problems at one point (hum) but I traced it down to my guitar (especially in my Fender Strat's)
The single coils love computer monitors unless you have a good shielding set up (copper foil captivity) Les Paul's are better  because of the humbuckers.
If you have more than 1 guitar try a test, see if the noise changes.
 
I still have a Fender Jazz bass that is noisy as all H. I gate it and deal with it.  Its my best Bass.

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#59
meh
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/03/08 23:57:40 (permalink)
chuckebaby
Rule Numero Uno
Tracks:
Buses:
FX And Bus Compression:

Nice rules of thumb here Chuckeybaby
 
thx
 
meh

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#60
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