Helpful ReplyLoudness before or after?

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bobernaut
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2017/02/18 06:43:36 (permalink)

Loudness before or after?

Hello everyone and thanks for reading this. I am very curious to hear many of your answers to this question: Do you personally build up your volume at mix down of your project OR after, during mastering? I know many of you will probably say something about doing both, but I don't think that will truly answer the question.
 
Let me put it this way and maybe it will explain my question better. I know of many internet musicians (engineers/masters/etc) who claim that volume is obtained from the mix-I have seen this done and done well in various videos.
 
BUT
I have also read many articles and several books which are dedicated to the art that say just the opposite-volume is created  after the mix and is done with limiters, primarily, but with some other techniques as well. I have seen this done also on various videos.
 
For the record, I am referring to "In The Box" mixing and mastering.
 
I am interested in as many qualified answers as I can get because I keep going back and forth with this question and would like to feel that I am doing it the "right" way and not the "wrong" way.
 
Some of you professional-types would probably ask what my overall goal is when discussing this. I am talking about internet distribution and at its best, without tens of thousands of dollars/pounds/etc spent on hardware.
 
I surely do look forward to your responses on this and hope I can come away with the "right" way!
 
Thanks everyone!
 
bob
 
 
 
 
 
#1
Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/18 07:24:44 (permalink)
It depends a little, if I have to do everything myself my process blends together a bit more and I may be pushing to loudness in the mix a bit more before final mastering. If I have to deliver a mix to be mastered externally it's a good idea to leave what may seem a generous amount of headroom (peaks on mastering bus averaging maybe between -10 and -4dB, definitely no higher peaks). When working in 24 bit there is plenty of audio resolution to boost things later during mastering.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/18 07:27:30 (permalink)
Here is a break down of my work flow but you can skip to the FX and Bus Comp to get directly to your answer.
Everyone works in their own way and I have seen people do things I would never do but some how they make it work. Rule Numero Uno: Don't put any FX on the master bus itself. This is the last place before digital conversion takes place (before feeding your soundcard). So keep it nice and clean. Even when I Master I typically put all FX in the tracks and keep my Master bus clean (With the exception of Analyzing and Metering tools). Those I put in the Master bus.
 
Tracks:
Each one of my tracks is sent to a bus. I have many different tracks which include midi and audio.
There's no rule here but I often send midi and audio tracks to the same bus (Stringed bass guitar audio + Synth Bass Midi) These 2 will go to a BASS BUS. Don't be afraid to push these. just remember the simple rule that each track adds 3db. so if you have 3 tracks at 0db unity, it will push your Master Bus in to the red at +6 to +9db. So the more tracks, the more your going to have to lower everything.
 
Buses:
This is where it can sometimes get complicated but remember there are no rules (Except the master bus rule).
Each bus is receiving a signal from the tracks being sent it to. I typically have 6-10 buses. These Buses are Drum Bus, Guitar Bus, Bass Bus, Vocal Bus, Synth Bus, Delay Bus, Reverb Bus, exc just to name a few.
The FX buses are receiving signal from the sends on different tracks (sending a portion of that signal to that buses FX).
I choose to lower my tracks vs lowering buses to adjust Master Bus levels. Once in a while I will drop a Bus fader 1db or so but any more. if I am having to drop my Bus faders, there's a problem somewhere in the tracks levels.
 
FX And Bus Compression:
I use FX in my Tracks and Buses. The majority of FX are in the tracks. I use Bus compression on almost every single Bus with the exclusion of the FX buses. Some Buses don't need the Bus compression (there's no dynamics best left uncompressed). I am a big fan of the WAVES SSL Bus compressor. It should be noted that I don't use these to squeeze the sound, they are only there to round off large spikes in the dynamics to tame to levels. This way in mastering its much more manageable. Its very easy to tell when you have used to much Bus compression.
When you cue it up to master it, its too squeezed,  sometimes distorted or simply no room to limit.
Remember to keep your Master bus fader between -6 / -3 on your mix downs. Your mastering engineer will love you.
 

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#3
Anderton
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/18 10:18:27 (permalink)
I bounce the mix to a track with no processors in the master bus to create a pre-master. It has full dynamics and typically peaks at around -3 dB. This is what I master, or if I want another set of ears, send to my partner-in-crime mastering engineer Steve Turnidge. Any volume maximization gets applied to the pre-master. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 01:02:04 (permalink)
Hey guys thanks for the great advice and really quick too! I thank you all. I think I have a question for chuckebaby or maybe you other guys as well.
 
I guess this will seem to be a foolish question, as in, I should already know this, but I am afraid I do not. When I create the buses and send to them, do I then send these bus outputs to the master bus, so that all buses go to the one master? Or, do I leave all my buses alone (drums, bass, etc) and export them along with the master bus when I am preparing to go to master? I have not been sending all the other buses to the master bus because it seems much louder and I don't like giving up the volume but maybe I pick this back up when mastering? I don't know but I want to know so that I can do this right.
 
By the way, thanks so much chucke for all that great info, man. I knew, more or less, about the levels and stuff but you really cleared it up nicely for me. Besides, I have heard your tunes and its wonderful stuff that you are sharing with me (and others) how exactly you accomplish this. I hope you respond to this question because I know you are a busy dude. Also, Sandexpander and Anderton too! I welcome any other help on this if someone else reads this.
 
Dang! You guys have a boatload of posts! No wonder you are so smart!
 
 Many thanks,
 
bob
#5
KingsMix
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 01:04:30 (permalink)
After
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bitflipper
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 07:36:26 (permalink)
There are good reasons why seasoned mixers tell you that loudness starts with the mix, and that it shouldn't be left entirely to the master bus limiter. A limiter raises everything while squashing peaks, and while that does raise the average RMS by reducing dynamic range, loudness perception is more complicated than that.
 
A good mix with judicious track compression should sound loud even before the master limiter has been engaged. All you have to do is make sure to leave enough headroom (at least 6dB) to allow the limiter to do its thing. 
 
 
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Anderton
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 10:35:21 (permalink)
bitflipper
There are good reasons why seasoned mixers tell you that loudness starts with the mix, and that it shouldn't be left entirely to the master bus limiter. A limiter raises everything while squashing peaks, and while that does raise the average RMS by reducing dynamic range, loudness perception is more complicated than that.
 
A good mix with judicious track compression should sound loud even before the master limiter has been engaged. All you have to do is make sure to leave enough headroom (at least 6dB) to allow the limiter to do its thing.

 
It's very revealing to use a maximizer-type plug-in with the option to balance the compressed and uncompressed sounds in terms of perceived level. The subjective difference is usually less than you might expect.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Cactus Music
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 11:37:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Caa2 2017/02/19 19:23:44
Loudness starts before you hit the record button. 
I make sure everything I record is at it's optimal level. 
My goal will be that most tracks, like bass and vocals, will sit in the mix perfectly when that track is set at unity. 
Those tracks will get a compressor in the track bin set with fast attack at a low setting to safeguard against overs. But I will also look for and edit peaks manually too. 
I'll watch the master output meter as I work to make sure I'm not heading for trouble. 
So for me it's a track by track process using compressors and eq to keep the tracks audible in the mix. If the master buss starts to peak then it's time to back off everywhere and maintain the balance. 
 
When the song is ready for export I've been putting the LP multi band on the Master buss. I set it fast attack and try to keep it from actually compressing any given band. If a band shows action I'll trouble shoot at the track level. 
 
I export the mix and open in Wave Lab to master. Some songs only need top and tail and my goal is a RMS average of around -13 db. with peaks just shy of 0db.  If the song is above -15 @ .05db peak I'll push it through the "maximizer" and add 2db. 
 

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#9
chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 19:03:31 (permalink)
bobernaut
Hey guys thanks for the great advice and really quick too! I thank you all. I think I have a question for chuckebaby or maybe you other guys as well.
 
I guess this will seem to be a foolish question, as in, I should already know this, but I am afraid I do not. When I create the buses and send to them, do I then send these bus outputs to the master bus, so that all buses go to the one master? Or, do I leave all my buses alone (drums, bass, etc) and export them along with the master bus when I am preparing to go to master? I have not been sending all the other buses to the master bus because it seems much louder and I don't like giving up the volume but maybe I pick this back up when mastering? I don't know but I want to know so that I can do this right.
 
By the way, thanks so much chucke for all that great info, man. I knew, more or less, about the levels and stuff but you really cleared it up nicely for me. Besides, I have heard your tunes and its wonderful stuff that you are sharing with me (and others) how exactly you accomplish this. I hope you respond to this question because I know you are a busy dude. Also, Sandexpander and Anderton too! I welcome any other help on this if someone else reads this.
 
Dang! You guys have a boatload of posts! No wonder you are so smart!
 
 Many thanks,
 
bob


All your Instrument buses will be routed to your Main Master bus.
This is of course subject, as everyone chooses a different way but I think the majority of users here will agree with me. Send your Buses to the Master Bus and keep that MB clean.
 
Mixing and Mastering is such a craft, there are so many good books and good videos out there but in my opinion: One learns to perfect the craft by trial and error. Making a lot of mistakes is where I learned the bulk of my most important lessons.
 
I will however give up my Grandmothers Secret recipe . (actually its one I've created by trial error) Works well with Rock music, Some Pop and even Metal.
 
- When you begin the Mastering stages use this as a reference:
 
1- Start by opening a new blank project
2- Drag/drop your finished mix on to the audio track
3- Insert your mastering plug ins / mastering chain in to the "Tracks" FX bin.
4- Drop your analyzing, metering plug ins in the master bus.
5- Listen and make adjustments.
6- Export
 
Create a mastering chain using your own plug ins. The order of which you use these plug ins is also very important.
For Example:
 
My Mastering Chain consists of:
 
1- Linear EQ to drop off/filter APPROX 30HZ and under.
2- CA-2A for Analog coloring= a 1 to 1.5 db push / very subtle.
3- The SSL Bus compressor.
4- The L3.
5- Followed by the L2.
6- Some more light Analog coloring.
7-The Secret sauce.

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#10
McMoore11
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 19:28:42 (permalink)
If I'm sending to a mastering engineer I will give him a stereo track that peaks at -6db.  This retains the automated dynamics and gives the mastering guy enough headroom to do his thing.  I also mix into the master fader compressor.
The tracks breathes better and sounds more natural than something slammed for volume.

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Anderton
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/19 20:10:37 (permalink)
McMoore11
If I'm sending to a mastering engineer I will give him a stereo track that peaks at -6db.  This retains the automated dynamics and gives the mastering guy enough headroom to do his thing.

 
Please convince anyone else who sends anything to mastering engineers to follow your example.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/20 00:31:21 (permalink)
Thanks so much everyone for your insights and knowledge, I really appreciate it!
I have pretended to play around with that LP Multiband but it scares the stuff out of me because, although I think I am hearing good things because of it, I guess I have trouble trusting my ears. I used to always use it when playing around with the idea of using it in mastering but have almost discarded it lately. I use it very sparingly I suppose you could say, whereas, in the past, I relied more heavily on it. For what it is worth though, I have tried to follow the same process that you use CM because I think that it feels (sounds) right. I will reconsider its usefulness though, and thanks for your input on that Cactus.
 
I wish I had your confidence bitflipper! Maybe one day I will (with guys like you all!). I will remember the rule, thanks.
 
Hey, Anderton, that's what I thought I had uncovered, so it sent me back to mix, looking for more volume-it has to be the solution it seems. It seems like slapping on a limiter is way too easy not to mention distorted and gnarly-sounding. So I agree with what the majority seems to saying (unless I got this wrong) that I need to stick with my original idea of generating the loudness (most of it)
from the mix portion. I thought this must be correct but I wanted to hear what you wise ones had to say and I am glad I asked and you all answered. Thank you sir!
 
Then there is the dude-chuckebaby. Wow, man, you are an awesome person (like the other guys too). You provide all of this personal knowledge and your personal stats on how you do things. Mainly though, you take the time to write all of this down for others. Amazing man.
 
I really appreciate your list because I am a list kind of guy-so long as the list is accurate, which I know yours is because I have heard quite a few of your tunes and they sound professional to me.
 
If you have the time, and its alright if you do not, I am not following you on your first step for mastering chain:
 

1- Linear EQ to drop off/filter APPROX 30HZ and under.
 
Are you talking about high pass/low pass filtering? Where you cut out the low end and the high end? I do cut the extreme highs and extreme lows and actually even more than that for my style (hard rock/metal) because I think that it sounds "better". Please explain what you mean if this is not it.
 
I almost got the SSL Bus Compressor last go around but didn't know if it was as great as I have since learned that it is, so I am looking forward to hearing whatever difference that makes on my stuff.
 
I have only the L2 and the L1, do you think I can get by with those two for your step 4 and 5? I almost got that too but didn't know if I was qualified enough to use it. I understand that it is more complex than the L1 and L2. Do you believe it is necessary enough that I should have it as well? Will it make a significant difference? A noticeable difference?
 
I have a couple of CLA plug-ins but not specifically the one that you mentioned. Does that one that you mentioned add significantly to the better end product-the master?
 
I respect and honor your "secret sauce" and will try to develop my own, but thanks for everything else that you so graciously provided! I will try and implement each and every one of this pieces of advice into my next "session". That goes for all of you guys too. Thanks!
 
If you can't get back to this I understand but I hope you do.
 
Also, McMoore11, thank you for your input but I am afraid that, for now, I am still clinging to the belief that I can master this myself-I'm just goofy that way. You know, like when you continue to run your head into a brick wall over and over.
 
 
Thank you everyone and I look forward to anything else that you wish to add, if there isn't anything more I still feel very lucky that you guys shared your wisdom with me!
 
bob
 
 
#13
Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/20 00:58:46 (permalink)
Not to start this whole discussion again, but a steep low roll-off is better done with a regular (a.k.a. minimal phase) EQ than a linear EQ.
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bokchoyboy
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/20 11:12:12 (permalink)
Good stuff here... What about using plug ins on the master bus if you're not intending to send it out to get mastered by someone else?
 
Edit:  oops, just saw that OP asked the same question...
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McMoore11
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/21 14:18:47 (permalink)
Anderton
 
 
Please convince anyone else who sends anything to mastering engineers to follow your example.
 


Thanks Craig.  In this instance I concur.  
In other examples it would be wise to have bail money squirreled away.

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chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/21 21:20:17 (permalink)
bobernaut
1- Linear EQ to drop off/filter APPROX 30HZ and under.
 
Are you talking about high pass/low pass filtering? Where you cut out the low end and the high end? I do cut the extreme highs and extreme lows and actually even more than that for my style (hard rock/metal) because I think that it sounds "better". Please explain what you mean if this is not it.

 
When you start boosting everything, the last thing you want to do is boost Low end too much.
That's why placing the Linear Phase EQ first is important. your not hearing much under 30HZ anyway.
 
Sanderxpander
Not to start this whole discussion again, but a steep low roll-off is better done with a regular (a.k.a. minimal phase) EQ than a linear EQ.

 
 
 
Yet you did start this discussion again.
Just say it like it is... That's your opinion.
 
Can I hear some of your examples that were mastered with min phase EQ ?
My example is in my sig.
 
 
 
post edited by chuckebaby - 2017/02/22 06:01:07

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#17
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/21 22:45:53 (permalink)
For me its probably 75% in the mix.  The master only adds a little bit of volume.  The master stage for me mostly provides "glue" and "pop", assuming I did the mix.
 
During the mixing stage, I buss things a lot, with small stages of compression at each stop in the chain(sounds much  more natural than trying to do all the compression in one single stop).
 
 Like lets talk about drums for example, just to make sense of it.  I will gate each close mic and sometimes even the snare if there isnt much going on with the snare.  I will then do a bit of EQ and then light compression on each individual drum track.  Compression settings are typically as follows.  Slow attack around 30ms to keep the transients, and a moderate to slow release just depending on how it sounds(maybe 60ms or so), and I only want to see about 3db worth of compression(and I compress at a ratio of usually 2:1 but as much as 4:1).  If I REALLY need some thump or crack from the drums...  I might even apply a limiter to individual tracks as I see fit.  
 
 I'll then bus all the drums to a master drum bus using the output on each track.  That whole buss is compressed the exact same way I explained above with slowish attacks, modest release, modest ratio, and only about 3db total compression.  I'm keeping a lot of transients, but bringing out a little more fullness yet.  And again, it sounds better than compressing all at once to 6DB on the bus....vs 3db on each track and then 3 db on the buss..
 
I'll also send each individual drum(using track sends) to another "buss" just to parallel compress the whole kit together with slightly more extreme compression(I tend to send hotter levels of the close mics and lesser levels of the overheads so the cymbals dont get to splooshy).  Here I do real fast attacks and releases, often with at least 6:1 ratio and a much higher ratio is not out of the question.  Im usually looking for more like 10-12 DB of compression out of this bus.  This really brings the roundness out of the drums. It doesnt sound good on its own but sounds nice blended in. 
 
Then I will output that parallel compressed bus to the master drum buss and blend it in to taste.
 
I often approach every group of instruments like this, and by the time the mix is complete.... its darn near as loud as the master will be.
 
FYI Im usually working on harder rock to metal type stuff. It might not be the best approach if you are doing some softer styles where you need/want a lot of dynamics(I tend to fake dynamics with tons of volume and panning automation).
 
One last note.  Most of what Im talking about here is perceived loudness.  It DOES NOT need to smash the meter on the master bus lol.  You can be a few DB away from unity on the meter and the track is still going to have a ton of loudness before a master is performed.
 
 
#18
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/21 23:41:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/02/22 21:11:16
Thanks greg, for your answer and input, I know it takes quite an effort to write this stuff in and for no reward, but I say thank you sir! I have recently been messing around with the parallel compression because I think that I can see that it pretty much must be done in order to achieve the competitive amount of "loudness". I have read various articles about parallel compression but it was nice to have you explain more specifically what you do and how you do it. I knew that there was still something that I was missing and I believe that it is probably the parallel compression largely. That, and saturation, but that is probably another topic. I mean, where else can I get this volume from? If all else is correct (recordings, technique etc) then there are not too many places left to find more volume...loudness...other more technical terms. Not that I know of, anyway. 
So, thanks for your say in this. I am about to go nutty with the parallel compression to see if I can find that extra loudness (perceived, right?).
Also, chucke, I tried your set-up and I think I dig it. I added a couple of small things to it-what you might refer to as "secret sauce", and I am really close now. So thanks again!
 
Oh yeah, I have that Yoad (Yo-ad) video already and it contains great info. I really do need to watch it more though apparently. Knowing that you recommend the same video means I ain't all that far off (maybe).
 
Thanks everyone for your input-I think I am up another notch due to all of your answers!
 
bob
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/22 09:20:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jackson white 2017/02/27 11:58:21
chuckebaby
 
Sanderxpander
Not to start this whole discussion again, but a steep low roll-off is better done with a regular (a.k.a. minimal phase) EQ than a linear EQ.

 
 
Yet you did start this discussion again.
Just say it like it is... That's your opinion.
 
Can I hear some of your examples that were mastered with min phase EQ ?
My example is in my sig.
 
 
 

I have no doubt you get decent results, Chuck, and I don't really get why you seem to take this so personal. The benefits of linear phase are minimal with low cuts and you run the risk of pre-ringing. This is not something I've made up to annoy you.
 
But you're right; this is my opinion that I offer as counteradvice for the OP. Here's some explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKabAQQsPQ
 
Let the OP (and anyone else) make up their own mind.
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2017/02/22 10:08:30
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greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/22 10:46:04 (permalink)
bobernaut
Thanks greg, for your answer and input, I know it takes quite an effort to write this stuff in and for no reward, but I say thank you sir! I have recently been messing around with the parallel compression because I think that I can see that it pretty much must be done in order to achieve the competitive amount of "loudness". I have read various articles about parallel compression but it was nice to have you explain more specifically what you do and how you do it. I knew that there was still something that I was missing and I believe that it is probably the parallel compression largely. That, and saturation, but that is probably another topic. I mean, where else can I get this volume from? If all else is correct (recordings, technique etc) then there are not too many places left to find more volume...loudness...other more technical terms. Not that I know of, anyway. 
So, thanks for your say in this. I am about to go nutty with the parallel compression to see if I can find that extra loudness (perceived, right?).
Also, chucke, I tried your set-up and I think I dig it. I added a couple of small things to it-what you might refer to as "secret sauce", and I am really close now. So thanks again!
 
Oh yeah, I have that Yoad (Yo-ad) video already and it contains great info. I really do need to watch it more though apparently. Knowing that you recommend the same video means I ain't all that far off (maybe).
 
Thanks everyone for your input-I think I am up another notch due to all of your answers!
 
bob




oh no problem at all!
 
As far as parallel compression is concerned, I dont want you to get the wrong idea that it is a one stop shop to create all the loudness.
 
It is a contributor for sure, but not a necessity to acheive loudness.  I use it for more 'effect'.  Just hypothetically speaking if my main drum buss were sitting at -1.  Id probably blend in the parallel compressed bus somewhere around -10 to -12.
 
It does add 'some' volume, but more than anything, it adds some space and depth and punch and brings the drums forward a little.
 
to further explain some things I might do in order to add perceived loudness is simply using EQ and stereo panning to really give things a place and make them heard.
 
For example say were talking about a heavy guitar sound.  Id double track it.  Literally play the same riff twice.  Pan one 75% left, the other 75% right(compress each track very much the same way I explained my drum technique) then buss them and compress that buss with the same light compression.
 
Id also give each guitar an EQ that complements one another.  Like in the left track, Maybe Id do a 2 DB boost at 500 to make it sound rounder.  In the right track Id do a 2db cut at 500 just to take away some frequency that I added in the other channel.  Then Id take the left track and do a 2 DB cut at say 2500 to take some edge off, and a 2DB boost at 2500 in the right channel to add some edge.  And then finally maybe Id boost somewhere from 4500-6000 by 2db in the left channel, and then cut the same frequency by the same amount in the right.
 
The end result is you arent actually changing the overall recorded tone of the guitar by any great degree. All the frequencies you cut in one are brought forward in the other and the net end result is the tone doesnt change a whole lot, yet you make holes from one side to the other for them to fill one another.  It adds separation and makes both tracks stand out better even without making them louder.
 
making small boosts and cuts across all the instruments helps to give each one a notch to fit into. Putting things in places in the stereo field further helps to add separation and also minimizes the same frequencies from various instruments from all standing on each other and competing for the same place.  Sometimes just hearing everything more clearly makes everything sound bigger.
 
lastly...  it doesnt always work lol.  Sometimes I create too much 'loudness' in the mix and when I begin to master....  I can definitely hear that Ive killed too much headroom even when the meters look good.  Things just start to sound artificial and bouncy in the wrong places and I have to revisit the mix itself.
 
Im still always learning when and where and how much loudness I can push into the mix before it starts to hurt the master. Its hard to explain but even if the meter says you have headroom...  if you have overdone it in the mix and removed too much dynamics in the mix......  enough mastering compression to glue it all together often makes it too bouncy
 
unfortunately there cant be just one single magic bullet lol
 
 
#21
chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/22 15:28:12 (permalink)
Sorry Sander, It is nothing personal.
 
Im just trying to help this guy out and I feel like you want to start another debate over a topic that we previous beat to death in another thread.
 
Im going to be totally honest here. I watched that 19 minute video and was waiting for any kind of suggestion, any kind of clue, any kind of sign where the guy would say.. "For mastering you should use min phase EQ".
 
Nothing !  I heard nothing of that nature.
 
Im sure your a good guy and have a lot to offer but there's too much drama here man .
Im sure you don't care but Im Blocking you. good luck in the future.
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by chuckebaby - 2017/02/22 21:06:53

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#22
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/23 00:39:51 (permalink)
Hi again greg and chucke, and thanks again for all your help. Hey, Greg-I can't think you enough for what you have divulged-wonderful! (Same with chucke too!)
 
I am basically doing most of the things you guys do, with a couple of exceptions. If you feel like, please give your opinion on these things. If you don't; its perfectly cool, man.
 
1) I actually record 4 guitar tracks and pan 70% left/right and 50% left/right. Why? I have read from many professionals and non-professionals, that this is their trick to achieving that really thick, heavy guitar tone/sound. I too, do the very heavy stuff similar to Killswitch Engage or 5FDP. Yes, it is brutal to perfectly copy 4 tracks in metal but that's what I have done.
 
2) I was wondering why no one was mentioning imaging. Do you guys use stereo imaging on the mix bus, master (not master bus) or not at all? I think that it is an awesome tool but I do hear some say that it clutters up the mix, and I sure don't want that!
 
No, Greg, I got your meaning on the compression. There is a point, to me, where its too much, so I have to choose wisely, so to speak.
 
There certainly seems to be a wide variety of ways to get there but one needs to know not just the basics, but what absolutely must be done and followed, and where one can go off the path a bit. I thank you guys for telling, nay, explaining in depth, what it is that you do with your music.
 
Hey, chucke, I really appreciate your help so please don't think you have not helped me out a ton-because you have! I am having great results with what you have shown me. As far as I am concerned, you know your stuff and are kind enough to share, and that's nothing but wonderful stuff! Jack it up!
 
Thanks everyone for your time and help,
 
bob
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/23 02:52:51 (permalink)
Chuck, it's not the mastering, it's the low cuts, as I've said every single time I'm mentioning this. The video even starts with an explanation of that. But I'll drop it too. I'm not going to change your process, nor do I want to, if you're happy with it. Block away. At least I've offered some alternative info for the OP.

By the way I'd recommend that video to anyone, it's a great explanation of the (less expected) side effects of EQing.
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2017/02/23 04:41:02
#24
pwalpwal
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/23 06:42:58 (permalink)
blimey

just a sec

#25
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/24 00:29:14 (permalink)
Hi again!
 
As far as panning and tracking goes...  here is how I'm doing it right now.  Sort of pseudo quad tracking for the heavy stuff.
 
I run the guitar to a direct box and split it.  One line goes to an amp, which is mic'd, and the other is line in and I record just a clean sound.  I can then either re-amp that clean sound(which I do sometimes but rarely), or use a guitar amp simp (something like TH3 which comes with platinum and maybe other versions too but Im not sure...but this is normally the method I take).
 
So in one take I end up with 2 tracks.  I pop on that amp sim and dial up a sound complementary to the mic'd sound, and I pan BOTH tracks from that take the same way.  Lets say left.
 
Then I do another take, again recording the mic'd signal and the line signal and adding a virtual amp, and pan BOTH of those from that take right.
 
In reality its just a double take, but I get 4 tracks out of the deal(even though I have 4 tracks it doesnt truly sound like quad tracking).  I can use that amp sim track to add some flavor down the road by pinging through different amp models and seeing what really mixes well with the mic'd sound
 
I like this method better than actually truly quad tracking most of the time(I say most of the time because sometimes I do like quad.  Just depends on what Im after).  Something about actual quad tracking the same riff seems to take away focus even with a great, tight player.  When that focus and tightness seems to start going away.... I find myself trying to dial in more kick drum, adding too much 3k to the guitars, and trying to bring more top end out of the bass guitar in order to get that tightness and focus back.  And I'm not ashamed to admit I sometimes overdo it and have to go back and pull some of those 'corrections' back and just deal with the fact that it wont be as tight as Id like If I am to leave all 4 guitar tracks in there.  This doesnt necessarily apply if we are talking about a rhythm with a complementary lead part thats playing in octaves or harmonies or something like that.  At that point I could go either way(either have rhythm in one ear and the complementary lead in the other..  or just double track both and pan both left and right, ending up with 4 real tracks)
 
Just a quick tip.  If you do quad track..., and especially if you are quad tracking the same riff,  use less gain/distortion than you think you need.  If the amount of gain sounds 'just right' jamming solo...  once stacked 4 times it actually to my ears tends to sound like it puts a blanket over the guitars and contributes to the lack of focus.  Dialing a little light makes it end up just right once you stack it multiple times.
 
About panning, ... for the longest time Id pan 75% left and right and call it good.  Or in the case of quad tracks...  Id have two tracks with a bassier sound that Id pan 70& left and right, and 2 tracks with more sizzle that Id pan 80% left and right.  Real similar to what you are doing now, but just a little further with the pans.  I rarely go 100% on anything.  I try to make 90% my upper limit.  To my ears...once things hit 100% and have no presence at all in the other speaker it seems like it takes some energy out of the track.  Maybe its just mental and Im afraid of seeing the knob twisted so far but I swear I hear something that I dont like too lol
 
I've recently started to experiment with automating panning more.  Like, I will use my double track method with the direct box that nets me 4 tracks, and using envelopes, I will set the envelope up so that one pairing of guitars are both 70% left, with the other pair being 70% right during the verse.  When the pre chorus picks up I will have the envelope expand the panning on both channels to 80%, and then when the full chorus kicks in, I will set the envelope to grow it further to 90%.  Sort of making the stereo image grow or shrink during bigger and smaller parts of the song.  I often do the same with the drum overheads too and have them move in an out just a little from one part to the next.
 
I do a lot of hard rock and metal stuff too, which is not very dynamic music, and is usually pretty squashed when its all said and done.  So Im using things like that to try to "create" some dynamics, in a space where there arent many, if you will.
 
I wont swear by that technique just yet though.  Its really subtle and I think I'd need to duplicate a mix, but not automate the panning just to hear a before and after in order to say if its really 'worth it' if you know what I mean. 
 
 
#26
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/24 00:40:51 (permalink)
Oh and about imagers, I like them, and I dont have any rules about where I use them.  Kinda just wherever it seems like it makes sense.
 
Lets say Im recording a song with an intimate acoustic guitar featured(think like tears in heaven from clapton)....  or a blues kinda guy(something like pride and joy from SRV).  Those are two styles/examples where you wouldnt typically be double tracking and trying to pan the main guitars.  You might have some strumming or some licks or something in the background that you can pan one way or another....  but for that main guitar part that needs to stand on its own, these are times where I would use a stereo imager and maybe stereo reverbs or delays directly on the track itself to make that one sole guitar take up a little more real estate in the stereo field, and get some reflections of it further into the side channels.
 
But sometimes I will also plop one directly on the master buss, usually first in the chain and open it up maybe 15-25% just to see if I like what its doing, and sometimes I do.  Sometimes it can sound odd, especially if you really push it, but when it works it works! 
 
 
 
#27
bobernaut
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/24 01:43:32 (permalink)
Hi Greg, and thanks for more info, I do appreciate it! That method you spoke of is not something that I would likely do because I am trying to everything right out of the box, because I am fairly convinced that it can be done and that this "box" way is the future. Yes, I know, it breaks the heart (mine too), but I don't think that things will reverse as far as this goes. This is no statement pertaining to you and your advice, though, just a boring generalized statement which can very easily be over-looked. There have been so many times that I thought about just going through the mic and amp because I didn't really love the tones that I was getting and having to accept but I discovered that eventually, one can find the right tone if they play around enough with all the settings and plugs. I think what you are doing is pretty smart though and I will put it (your way) in my memory banks!
 
Its funny that you mention, essentially, distortion, drive etc., because I forgot to ask you what settings you use to record with. It seems an easy answer but, as you know, it really is not. I have found that the amount of drive that sounds good actually can't be used or anywhere near it. I use around 40% drive and sometimes less. This on the more "heavy" amp sims. I appreciate your wisdom about stacking and can say that I am past that one, but thanks anyway. It may help someone else!
 
I completely agree with you on the panning. Way left/right seems to create an undesirable hole in the middle (to me, anyway). Interesting what you said about trying to make up for it with the EQ. I am currently striving to find that ideal "metal" sound without going to synthetic, because I really can't stand that particular sound-very phoney-metalish.
 
For me, as soon as I go much past 50-60% left/right, I start to feel as though I am losing my base. I used to do the far right, far left thing too.
 
That's really interesting about you automating the panning, it makes good sense but I am not sure if I want to go down that road yet. I will certainly think about it though and may well end up messing with it, so thanks for including that concept because I really had not considered it other than the lead (sometimes).
 
I appreciate your input on stereo imaging as well. I feel about the same as you on this. Do you suppose that it is merely a matter of taste? Maybe this is why they say not to mix and master your own stuff-too many variables for the artist but no problem for an outside mixer. Maybe we are too close to "our baby" for our own good? Nah! We will keep going, won't we? I have been experimenting with using an imager on the master as well. I don't know how else to make the mix seem to be everywhere like I hear on some famous pro records. Maybe its just a matter of a pro's experience and success?
 
 
Well, like I said, Greg, thanks so much for all your input. I have that to bounce up against when I am trying to make my decisions. Same for all you other guys too, thanks!
 
Hey, Sanderx, thanks for the link. I watched it but this may be too much for me to take in one pass. I see your point, but it doesn't seem simple to me-not on one pass, anyway. I think I am more of a Pensado-type of guy maybe-not saying he isn't sharp, because he is. Thanks for your help.
 
 
Thanks everyone, I am sitting much more stable now thanks to all your input. Massive thanks!
 
bob
#28
greg_moreira
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/24 09:05:37 (permalink)
Hey Bob!
 
I am totally not opposed to keeping it 100% in the box either.  The fact that I have a couple good amps around here to mic is why we use them when we can, but I don't consider it to be mandatory.  As a matter of fact, if I had anyone here wanting to record and they WANTED to use all software stuff vs me having to mic stuff up etc...  Im all for it.  Personal preference...  I like the feel of a good tube amp when playing.  I know a software amp will sound absolutely fine when its all said and done, but during tracking for performance reasons, and depending on what I need from the performance, I guess I like playing through an amp myself... and why not mic it at that point lol.
 
I could just as easily use all software amp sims, and have done that plenty too.
 
Now just a disclaimer.  If the quad tracking thing works for you, obviously stick with it.  To me this is more about preference than anything.  I wasnt trying to turn you off from it, as much as I was trying to explain why I dont do it as often as I used to.  Obviously we wont have the same experience here, so take the next part with a grain of salt :)
 
about that whole double track vs quad deal..
 
If your recording interface has hi-z and low-z inputs...  you can still use the direct box theory...or just a general splitter box with two instrument ins on your interface.
 
The end result of that would be getting 2 clean tracks per take.  Once you do your second take, you get 2 more clean tracks, netting you 4 clean tracks to apply 4 different software amps.  More or less the same thing as my earlier explanation without micing anything :)
 
as far as drive goes...  I kinda just approach it like wherever I think i have found a great sound...  I roll back that gain maybe 10% before recording if I know Im gonna be stacking a lot of distorted guitars.
 
If it ends up at 40%, then thats where its at.  Seems to me that most software amps have all the distortion I need between 50-65%, so recording with 45% or so is not out of the question
#29
chuckebaby
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Re: Loudness before or after? 2017/02/24 11:47:45 (permalink)
Bob,
If you want post a mix (or master if you prefer) and we can have a listen.
I do this often with other producers in my circle. We bounce ideas of each other all the time.
Sometimes its that one thing you don't hear in a mix that is a bit too up front.
 
The most important things I have learned over the years (as far as recording, mixing and mastering my own material). Is the bias we have when it comes Mixdown time.
We hear that solo part because we recorded it our self, so sometimes it isn't loud enough in the mix because we know its there. Sometimes even the untrained ear is good to hear their suggestions.
I have also found the more people to critique your mixes the better. some times we hear a repeating phrase from individuals like "the vocals are too loud" or "I don't hear the drums enough". this helps us put together the pieces.

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#30
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