Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level

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fireberd
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2017/02/23 10:50:28 (permalink)

Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level

I don't know when this started as I haven't done any mixdowns for the last couple of months. 
However, today I've done two mixdowns (bounce to tracks) and the stereo Left track is lower volume level (approx. 3DB)  than the right track.  They both should be the same (I'm bouncing mono tracks).  I didn't notice this on mixes I've done (since I got Sonar 6) and I'm doing it exactly the same way (using defaults in the Bounce function). 
 
I'm using the latest Sonar Platinum version (2017.01).  I rolled back to the previous version and did a mixdown and the same thing.
 
My recording interface units are not the problem (the mixdown should be strictly a Sonar function).  Just in case it was, I used my backup unit and it did the same thing.  My primary is a MOTU 896mk3 Hybrid and my backup is a Focusrite 6i6 2nd generation.
 
I had marked this solved but the problem showed up again today. 
post edited by fireberd - 2017/02/25 11:42:58

"GCSG Productions"
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    bitman
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 13:29:06 (permalink)
    Lemmie axe you dis:
     
    Are you measuring the difference, or perceiving it?
    The reason I ask is this. If the sources are the same audio but out of sample sync, the first arrival at your ears will sound louder than the later one.
    #2
    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 14:33:48 (permalink)
    I can see it, looking at the waveforms in Sonar and in Goldwave.  I can also see the difference in the level meters for both channels. 
     
    I got around it, for these two mixes since they are all mono tracks, by mixing down as mono instead of stereo and then converting to stereo in the track.  Both left and right are identical that way.

    "GCSG Productions"
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    #3
    Anderton
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 15:31:31 (permalink)
    It could depend on what's being specified as the source, for example, if the panpot on the Master bus is misadjusted.

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    ampfixer
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 15:39:35 (permalink)
    Bouncing to tracks will generate a +3db bump if you use the default pan law. I ran into this and changed to another pan law to correct it. 

    Regards, John 
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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 16:45:21 (permalink)
    The panning is set at "0" (center).  I've done a ton of mixdowns this way before and never noticed any difference in the two channels.  The session template I used was one that I used on previous sessions.  
     
    I went back and looked at some older projects and the two channels are equal on them.  Only difference is the version of Sonar.  I'm off for a gig tonight.  I'll try rolling back tomorrow to a couple of months ago version and see what it does.

    "GCSG Productions"
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 17:10:04 (permalink)
    If you read the help files it states that the default pan law "0" (center) will add 3db to anything that's panned hard left or right when you bounce to tracks. I think Sonar is seeing your mono track as a hard panned stereo track when it's bounced to a stereo track. Try the pan law at the bottom of the drop down list in preferences, I think it might fix your problem.

    Regards, John 
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    #7
    listen
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/23 17:15:27 (permalink)
    I not familiar with your I/O - but anytime that happens to me it is because I have multiple outs on my I/O and I have left the headphone or another aux volume up/open.  You can't hear it in the master out, but it does get included in the mixdown.  Just a thought...

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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/24 06:33:16 (permalink)
    Rolled back to 2016.09.  Did a mixdown with one of the projects that mixes with the left channel lower than the right and NO PROBLEM - both channels are the same level.  Using the same defaults in Bounce to Track(s).
     
    I guess I'll have to start from the 2016.09 and try each monthly upgrade to see where it goes off.
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/24 06:57:19 (permalink)
    Well, the problem went away!  I rolled back to 2016-10, 11 and 12 and it was all OK.  I installed the current version, which had the problem and its gone.  However, after I first had the problem, I rolled back to 2016-12 and still had the problem.  I updated to the current version and it too was still there.  That was when I first posted about the problem.
     
    Only conclusion I can think of is one of the older versions reset/cleared whatever the problem was.  I did the mixdown (Bounce) the same in every version (and the same way I've done it for years).  ##@!%^%
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    listen
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/24 09:06:14 (permalink)
    The imperfect world of technology

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    Paul G
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/24 10:43:43 (permalink)
    I think this may be related to the problem I was having here:
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/Audio-Exports-at-Higher-Level-m3556274.aspx#3557361
     
    Thanks for the research, Jack.  I'll give that a try.
     
    Paul

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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/24 11:34:46 (permalink)
    I don't think mine was exactly the same.   When Sonar created the "stereo" track from mono tracks on mixdown is where I encountered the different levels for the Left and Right tracks.  BUT, If I mixed down the project tracks to a mono track and then created the stereo track from that mono track both Left/Right levels were the same.  This suggests Sonar has different utilities for creating stereo tracks.  Fortunately one of the older versions corrected what was wrong with my 2017.01 version. 

    "GCSG Productions"
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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/25 12:00:15 (permalink)
    I had marked this Solved (sort of) but the problem has showed up again on Sonar and my production Win 10 OS.  I have a second, separate, installation of the Win 10 "insider preview" version and Sonar installed on that.  The insider preview version is dual boot, on its own separate SSD.  I tried Sonar (2017.01) on the insider preview installation and the mono tracks on the mixdown to a stereo track are the same level. 
     
    However, on my production, they are slightly different.  After reading the thread on Stereo Panning Law, I wondered if that had something to do with the unbalanced levels.  I tried all the Panning Law options and the channel levels were always off the same amount.  I'm back to where I started using the default Panning Law option (what I've always used). 
     
    The levels are not off as much as they previously were, but they are different.
    I exported the track and loaded it in Goldwave.  Using the Goldwave "Match Volume" function this is what is reported as the levels in each track (no Goldwave modification):
     
    Current Average:
    Left: 0.0300 (-30.4db)
    Right: 0.0319 (-29.3db)
     
    Final Peak:
    Left 0.9695 (-0.27db)
    Right 1.0696 (+0.5db)

    "GCSG Productions"
    Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. 
    ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/27 06:40:02 (permalink)
    Anyone? 
    From other comments it looks like trying to contact Cakewalk support is fruitless, so I need input here.
     
    Thanks/Jack

    "GCSG Productions"
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    chuckebaby
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/27 07:17:54 (permalink)
    do a few tests and double check your bus section.
    I want you to get a good look at your hardware faders in the bus section.
    Im not saying its a hardware problem, im saying the hardware fader in sonar (the one that is typically hidden all the way to the right in Console view) directly effects the levels at which you bounce and export.
     
    Years ago I used to use this fader to control room volume .
    I forgot it directly effected the levels of the mix. Scratched my head for days trying to figure out what was going on.
    Place it at 0db (set it / forget it)

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    #16
    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/27 08:53:33 (permalink)
    They are set at "0".  I use the console view as the meters allow seeing the difference in channels.  It would not appear to be hardware (recording interface units) as it does the same with either my MOTU or Focusrite unit connected.
     
    I exported the mix as a wav and then opened it in Goldwave so I could get the exact measurements.  The difference in the left/right channels are not enough to be heard but concern me as they should be exactly the same considering I'm mixing down mono tracks to a stereo track.
     
    This time I rolled back to an earlier version 2016.10 and it didn't "fix" it like it did before (maybe I need to roll back further). 
     
    The utility that converts to stereo in the Bounce to Track(s) mixdown function does not create the same level stereo tracks.  If I knew where that was possibly I could replace that with the same function in my other Win 10/Sonar configuration as it doesn't have the problem.  Or something in the Bounce to Track(s) is where the problem is and not the stereo conversion as I can mixdown to a mono track and then convert the mono track to stereo and its OK - both tracks are the same.  I use defaults in the Bounce to Track(s).
     
    A Complete uninstall of Sonar is out of the question as I would probably lose some older VST's.  The install I have was "upgrade" from X3 (and X3 is still installed).

    "GCSG Productions"
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    #17
    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/27 09:01:30 (permalink)
    Update.  I rolled back to 2016.09 and the levels are exactly the same. 
     
    I'm going to delete the 2017.01 image that CCC stores, upgrade to the 2017.01 which will force it to download a new copy and then see how the levels are.
     
    EDIT: I upgraded to 2017.01 (CCC downloaded new image) and the level difference is back.  Rolled back to the 2016.09 and all is well.   
     
     

    "GCSG Productions"
    Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. 
    ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
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    ampfixer
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/27 15:17:54 (permalink)
    IS it a bug, or the unintended consequence of continuous development?

    Regards, John 
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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/02/28 06:38:50 (permalink)
    I would say its a bug, in mine.  I can "workaround" by mixing down my mono tracks to a new mono track instead of stereo and then converting to stereo (two track) in the mixed down track. But its not a fix. 
     
    If I want to pan some of the mono tracks (and I do that at times) then mixdown I need to use stereo, and then the (small) level problem.

    "GCSG Productions"
    Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. 
    ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
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    fireberd
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    Re: Mixdown (Bounced tracks) stereo tracks are different level 2017/03/01 13:35:38 (permalink)
    The older Sonar version levels have changed since rebooting the PC.  I uninstalled Sonar, using the CCC, rebooted the PC and then installed the current version.  There is still about 0.75 db difference in the channels.  Realistically not much but there should not be any difference - both channels should be exactly the same.  If I mixdown to a mono track and then convert to stereo both left and right levels are exactly the same.  This would point to the Bounce to Track(s) stereo conversion as the issue (I'm using the defaults in the Bounce function).
     
    I tried this with Studio One 3.  I have a version I got with a Presonus hardware purchase but don't really use.  I exported each mono track from Sonar and imported those tracks into Studio One 3 and then did a mixdown and both stereo channels are the exact same level (what is expected).   
     
    FWIW I can't say this is a new problem. It may have been there all along and I never noticed it before.

    "GCSG Productions"
    Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. 
    ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
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