AnsweredBlind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/07 17:23:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/05/07 19:20:28
This is all too confusing - I just went and bought a Midas Venice 320 this morning and ordered a UAD Apollo 16. 
 
Time for some analog summing!
 
Who wants sound clips?! (If so, Ed needs to fly to Nebraska...) :)
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/07 17:52:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2017/05/08 17:45:27
msorrels
SONAR can only use one ASIO driver at a time.  You can't have two different drivers active at the same time.  So there is no way to do what he's doing in the video.  I believe you have to disable your sound card's ASIO drivers to enable the ReaRoute drivers.
 
Seems like Cakewalk should have worked on this part of the SONAR engine, you should be able to have as many different drivers (and driver types) all at the same time.  But it doesn't work that way.



The ASIO spec itself limits to a single driver...   
Some audio interfaces allow several units to operate together (adding channels of I/O)... but the combo functions under a single ASIO driver.

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/07 17:54:08 (permalink)
bapu
My work is done here.



Thanks for doing that ...

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/07 20:30:04 (permalink)
bapu
Only 2 people claimed that A was Mixbus.
More than that claimed they preferred B (SONAR).

What a surprise! I was almost certain that B is Mixbus. That would explain why people talk about its sound, summing and overall better ... "feel" for lack of a better word. Thanks for this test, Ed.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/07 21:27:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2017/05/08 12:06:18
Well I have just done null test with the multi track drum session that my son played for the Cirque audition. I imported the (pristine) tracks into both Studio One and Mixbus 32C. No effects used anywhere on either. No saturation used in Mixbus either. Only relying on the so called Mixbus summing sound magic to set them apart.
 
Most the tracks actually could stay at unity gain. I just increased the snare and kick by 3 db and lowered the OHeads by 6 db. I panned the OHeads L and R and panned the three toms L C and R. All else stayed centre.
 
Interesting that I got no discernible difference in sound from either. Virtually a perfect null as well. So I agree the video that Kenny posted is pretty accurate after all. (I did notice that Mixbus actually exported everything exactly 1 db louder than Studio One. So I had to reduce the Mixbus mix by exactly 1 db in order to get the perfect null)
 
So what this really points too is that any preferences that some may have for Mixbus or another DAW is linked to everything else that the two DAW's may provide. e.g. the dynamics that Mixbus offers built in plus the EQ sounds etc plus the saturation.
 
It concludes that there is no actual improvement to be gained from just using Mixbus alone and no effects and expecting Mixbus to add some summing magic. It isn't.
 
Mixbus can still soften transients but that is obviously coming from the saturation or even dynamics but not the summing engine alone. Which is actually quite good in a way because it shows that with no effects processing used anywhere Mixbus is basically leaving the sound alone.  Unless the null test fails to show what magic Mixbus might be adding but I am not sure on that though. Because if Mixbus was even a tad brighter then it would show in the null test.
 
I am not going to rush out any buy 32C V4 either.  It is not worth it. (Unless you want that EQ of course) The bottom line is if you are good you can get a fabulous (and the same) mix on any DAW. That is something I have always believed anyway.
 
It also makes me think that I can get some pretty cool console emulation going on too with Studio One's built in CTC-1 (if you own it that is) That does sound nice. And you don't have to export or transfer stuff from one DAW to the other. There is actually more control over the console emulation process as well with the CTC-1 compared to Mixbus. e.g. Drive and Character settings.
 
For those trying real hard to route signals from your DAW over to Mixbus and back again I say forget it and just get on with what you are doing with one DAW only! (Unless you really want to use all the other stuff Mixbus has to offer because the summing part of it seems to be neutral) I think there is enough other stuff in all our DAW's that will be able to match most of what Mixbus has to offer.
 
This test that I have just done has changed my opinion of Mixbus. It basically agrees with Soundwise now.

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 00:15:43 (permalink)


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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 02:32:39 (permalink)
It's been a cool thread, great experiment Bapu, thanks for taking the time to do it. I wasn't ever going to get Mixbus, so I am glad to see some of these test results confirming it can stay off my radar.
 
Prochannel's flexibility, the option to add in VST's should be enough to get the sound you are looking for. Michael Jackson's Thriller would have sounded great mixed on anything really.  Michael, Quincy and the others involved gave it the magic, not the desk.
 
I'm having fun with Klanghelm's SSDR on my busses for a changing the desk flavor. Still think cakewalk should approach Toni for his IVGI and DC1A in Prochannel form (and the VU metres) to make Sonar's Prochannel mixer even more flexible than the Mixbus's for tonal range.
post edited by Kamikaze - 2017/05/08 13:25:02

 
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 03:33:04 (permalink)
Nice post Kamikaze it sums things up rather nicely. I still like Mixbus a lot for sure. It is just that it is really another DAW in many ways except the GUI is different and I really like the whole analog console feel. The summing engine with no effects or saturation is not really adding any thing magical in reality. But there are many other aspects to it that do. I like the track, buss and stereo buss EQ's. The dynamics are great and so is the saturation in moderation as well. Their plugins are excellent as well as their mastering plugins too. This is the real stuff that makes up the very final sound we hear out the other end. The M32C channel EQ is beautiful. 
 
It reinforces the concept of the earlier experiment too where I got identical mixes in the 4 DAW's I tested just testing their summing engines. That proved to me very clearly that when nothing is being applied they are all identical really. As I have said before the moment you start inserting plugins here there and everywhere then the various DAW's go down their own road and the individuality sets in. Mixbus has its own individual sound in this mode too. And it is good as well.
 
Thanks too Kamikaze as I also have SDRR too and I keep forgetting I have got it. It does sound cool. And I can use it in conjunction with the Studio One CTC-1 as well.  Separate console emulation (that you either use or not) in one way is better because you have more control. 

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 11:08:44 (permalink)
+1 to Kamikaze's and Jeff's post.
 
I was surprised at the results and was convinced that A was Sonar. Just goes to show what can be achieved with Sonar. 
 
Thanks Bapu for taking the time.
 
P.S. I have MB4 but haven't got around to using it much. I find myself using Studio One Pro more and more despite the improvements in Sonar. The one thing that drives me nuts in Sonar is the way I find things selected that I didn't intend to so am constantly hitting Num5 to de-select (when I remember). 
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/08 12:05:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/05/08 15:42:44
bapu
My work is done here.




this is why we can't have nice things,, you try hard, present impartial facts, and they pee in your wheaties

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/08 14:57:51 (permalink)
bapu
My work is done here.




thanks Bapu

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/08 15:00:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/05/08 15:42:48
spoilers!!?!

just a sec

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/08 16:38:50 (permalink)
Mike McCue's take on this thread (over in the Mixbus forum).
 
the result was pretty much a landslide in SONAR's favour.
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 - SEE RESULTS in OP 2017/05/08 17:43:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/05/08 19:05:02
mudgel
Excellent video Kenny.

Thanks Mike
 
Mosvalve
I guess there is really no way to compare one DAW to another as they all have thier own special thing. It looks like you can set the emulation in Sonar to most peoples liking as was demostrated in this test. This tells me you can do the same in all DAW's.




Yes , I agree with you there .
 
bapu
My work is done here.





Hey Man , Great Job bapu
You dug very deep into this topic and you have put a lot of hard work into this DAW comparison .
 
      
     
Now go wash up Your Work here is done .
 
Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2017/05/08 18:53:00

                   
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 18:51:09 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
 
For those trying real hard to route signals from your DAW over to Mixbus and back again I say forget it and just get on with what you are doing with one DAW only! (Unless you really want to use all the other stuff Mixbus has to offer because the summing part of it seems to be neutral) I think there is enough other stuff in all our DAW's that will be able to match most of what Mixbus has to offer.
 
This test that I have just done has changed my opinion of Mixbus. It basically agrees with Soundwise now.




Hi Jeff,
 
I may come back later on and rap with you on some of the other things you have posted in this thread ..
Right now this "quote of yours " is something I can respond to quickly ...
I pretty much agree w you ,
As far as the routing and doing things in Mixbus being fed by another DAW , I can say that it is a real  PITA ...
I have had the ability to route Logic into Mixbus for years VIA Jack on my older Mac's .
Over there within that side of things ( OXS ) I happen to feel that it was easier to try out those routing options to be able to test the waters . Also in my case the need might have been greater to experiment around since there is no such thing as SONAR for Mac w the Pro Channel 
I came to the conclusion very early on that it is like 4 times the work to keep track of all the routing , all the settings in both DAW's including the  instruments , levels, plugs , as per track settings ,and everything else that goes along with that approach ..
Even then I have to be able to save projects with those settings to be able to re edit them ....
 
To put it mildly I gave up on that workflow for now over on the Mac side ...
My preference has reverted back over to the typical Harrison Mixbus work flow of importing my individual tracks and stems into Mixbus and working within Mixbus for that stage of my music ...
BTW , I have also re-imported quite a bit back into SONAR after hitting it with Mixbus  regardless of which OS it was born in 
 
Over on the Windows side , Yes, of course I'm still interested in checking out the routing between Mixbus and whichever DAWs I have that will support an approach along the lines of what was done in The Reaper video that I had posted in this thread ...I'm very happy that fella took the time to spell it out and create a vid
 
I feel that while I was feeding Reaper into Mixbus as per the videos suggestions , it wasn't a total waste of my time.
I did learn something new and it brought back something old ....
 
Once again I have found that running even a small mix of only a few tracks through both DAW's while working in real time using Mixbus as a plug is a whole lot to have to keep track of
I'm still gonna experiment a little on the side with that type of workflow .
The thing is I fall into the Camp of Mixbus users that like to bring in my stems and individual tracks into Mixbus from elsewhere  to use Mixbus for what it seems best suited for ...Mixing ...
 
As far as the A B test results go and peoples reactions to them ...I'm glad this thread exists...
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

                   
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 22:51:11 (permalink)
Rob[atSound-Rehab]
Just listened, but not yet read the other's comments above ... I got a clear preference. Will see if it turns out to be Mixbus or if I can save the money on upgrading to v4 (and invest in an hearing aid instead) ;-)


Well, it did not turn out to be mixbus ... another case of the emperor's new clothes?

I reckon for time being I invest the v4 upgrade fee in cold somewhat alcoholic beverages and invite all those over who also got it wrong (or right by liking Sonar better) ...

Anyway, I still think mixbus got it's place where many of us try to use it i.e. pull in tracks/stems and start over with a clean desk, either to remix or to master ... to me that's the prime application for a 2nd DAW - to approach the same tune in a different way and not twisting the same knobs in the same sequence as in DAW #1 ...

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/08 23:34:33 (permalink)
If the null tests that Kenny showed in that linked vid and what Jeff Evans purports to have achieved are accurate then really EVERYONE was wrong no matter what their choice was. 
 
Just saying.
 
forgot to add the obligatory j/k emoticon 
post edited by bapu - 2017/05/09 00:30:07
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 00:18:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/05/09 00:29:20
bapu
If the null tests that Kenny showed in that linked vid and what Jeff Evans purports to have achieved are accurate then really EVERYONE was wrong no matter what their choice was. 
 
Just saying.


 

 
WOW , perspective , perspective PERSPECTIVE ..Peoples !
 
What happened to the Music ?
 
When null test's START CHARTING High up in i Tunes and Billboard with some # 1's  for weeks at a time
And when Lady Ga Ga ,  Katie Perry and Beyonce start shaking their Sexy Boom Booms to null tests in all their #1 Null Test dance videos ...
Only then I will give 2 $hits about null tests 
 
I still Wub Mixbus
 
Kenny
 
 

                   
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 11:58:56 (permalink)
I read MQs post over in the MB forum.
Although it generated some mild comments(8 posts 259 views), it seems people there are more concerned about control surfaces(57 posts, 1954 views)
 
as someone said above,  Perspective...

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 13:01:43 (permalink)
I would say perception, perception, PERCEPTION!
If you perceive a difference, and that difference inspires you; then you need it.
Ask any guitarist, its all about the "tone".
And "tone" is something we (guitarists) can never quite describe.
And, as often as not, its a moving target.
My thanks go out to Ed because I no longer am "jonesing" for MixBus.
But for those who use it, are inspired by it, and achieve results with it; I can see where its essential!
Yours in the quest...
T

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 14:46:32 (permalink)
Baps had nothing to gain or loose here. I appreciate that he did the test. Those who commented I think did so in hopes of helping or offering opinions. Baps could have switched the files and we would never know. Clearly he didn't do that since he likes MB and the findings seem to make a good argument for the console emulation in Sonar.
Jeff had some good approaches in how he determined his conclusions I think. No matter what anyone thinks they hear, I think we still need a good conclusive analytical approach.
 
I think SO is a decent daw. Does some things better and some not as well. To start comparing Reaper/SO/Sonar gets into a whole different subject.All daws should null the same. Do all daws use the same techniques at the master bus? We can see from Mixbus that they don't all necessarily stay the same. Anything they do that's different from basic A/D conversion and digital summing is a form of coloration. I personally want the option to add my own coloration. If there are major daw's adding  magic dust to the mix I would at the very least , like to know what they did so I have the option to reverse or change it.
 
This is a tough nut to crack since the differences are so very small and as many have said they are cumulative.
 
Not much has changed. If you liked Mixbus...keep on using it. If you didn't care either way I doubt this has changed your mind.

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 18:59:38 (permalink)
Maybe what should be compared between DAW's are their features. Pick three DAW's that have the same feature and see which one is best. This is probably much easier to do than comparing how each sounds and will probably be more helpful.

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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 19:03:07 (permalink)
FWIW , at this late stage of the game ,
 
I happen to think a lot of the confusion that surrounds Mixbus stems from comments from some Mixbus users that are saying things along the lines of ,
 
"I threw a Mix of a song I was working on that came from my main DAW into Mixbus and it instantly sounded much better than what I had before .WOW This is great . I didn't even have to do a thing to get that result "
 
 
Sound familiar ?  I don't recall Harrison ever making such a claim  
 
When confronted with bapus A B test over at the Mixbus Forum ,
 x42 an Ardour / Mixbus developer said this to bapu ...
 
RE: Interesting Blind A/B Test Between SONAR PC modules and Mixbus 32C
(Yesterday 12:39 PM)bapu Wrote:  Also, I did not "mix" the raw material (i.e. no FX, compression limiting etc) I just kept both systems raw data at unity gain.

What was the research question? What did you expect to learn from that?
 
...................................................................................................................................................................
 
IIRC , Harrison has always said Mixbus just sounds better ..Where's the crime in that ?
 
How is that statement any different than some of the promotional BS Gibson and Cakewalk has put out there ? 
 
IMHO, Folks should be happy that the SONAR VS Mixbus A B test  nulled ..
 
You work your butt off in your main DAW " lets say SONAR " for untold hours with the hopes of taking your music to the next level (what ever that may be for you ).
Wouldn't it make perfect sense that if you were going to take your hard work into another DAW that adds as much sonic coloration as Mixbus can add that you could at least start at a place in your mix that is verifiable ? Not only is it verifiable as per the null test , you can always get back to where you first began to be able to start all over again if need be  
 
Regarding Harrison's claim , " Mixbus does sound better " 
In certain cases with certain styles of music , Yes ! I happen to think that Mixbus sounds better ...
 
Mixbus is an alternative to a neutral sounding DAW once you start pushing it in the area's it was meant to be pushed in 
 
For that to actually happen .I have to start turning some knobs and moving around some sliders

Kenny
 

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 19:24:14 (permalink)
Just out of interest the original two mixes that Bapu posted definitely do not null.  No way known.  Well I tried real hard the other day and could not get them to null anyway.  The waveforms even look different.  I tried shifting them back and forth in time in tiny increments and various volume levels etc..
 
But that is because the Sonar mix was put through various stages of console emulation, saturation etc...And that was the idea was well.
 
My test was different with the pristine drum tracks.  In both DAW's I used no processing anywhere.  I turned the Mixbus saturation off.  I was just comparing the summing engines to see if Mixbus in its pure form still did add something to the sound compared to Studio One and it did not.  I got (very very close) to a perfect null.  Which means in its pure form Mixbus basically does not do anything to the sound.
 
But I totally agree with Kenny though in his last sentence in order to get the sounds out of Mixbus you have to actually turn some knobs and move some sliders and to take it further start inserting some of their plugins.  Use the built in dynamics/EQ on tracks, buses and the stereo buss.  That is where the sound comes from.
 
Dropping files into Mixbus and not using anything at all (Saturation OFF) does not achieve anything much.   It is just another DAW.   I don't believe it has this big Harrison 32C console sound built in that is always there.  If it did then my pristine drum test would never have nulled.

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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 20:01:46 (permalink)
Edit in my last post I meant the null that took place in The Reaper VS Mixbus video ..not SONAR ..my bad...
I would go back and change that but I won't only because the forum may trash my post ...and place it in the trash .
 
Another Mixbus thing I also have in common with Jeff is we both went out and bought a few of The Harrison Mastering Plugs . They were expensive , yet I do feel they were worth the money
 
Kenny
 
 

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



Jeff Evans
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/09 20:14:59 (permalink)
I bought all the mastering plugins and many of the standard track ones too.  I do like the mastering multi band compressor.  One of the features that I really like about this is you can limit how far down the gain reduction actually goes in any of the bands.  This is not achievable in many multi band compressors.  It means even if the signal within a band really slams the compressor in that band you can set it so there will only be a certain amount of gain reduction.  So it is easier to make it transparent in operation and not drop way down for a really loud section etc...
 
The mastering EQ has a rather nice method of drawing the response curve you are after and also the way you can redraw or remove that said response.
 
The reverb is simple to use and also sounds very nice too. 
 
The built in dynamics on the tracks too are rather nice.  They can be severe but once you learn to massage them a bit so they are not destroying the sound they can be subtle and powerful too. 
 
The EQ on the main stereo buss is also nice and that lower mid control is set right around 300 Hz which is ideal for removing mud.  You only have to tweak that knob a bit to the left and most of the mud is gone!
 
The M32C channel EQ is also real nice and sounds very much like the real thing too with those lovely glassy highs. 
 
It is things like this that really contribute to the Harrison sound in my opinion.  

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
 
Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
dubdisciple
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Re: Blind A/B Test of SONAR PC CONSOLE vs MIXBUS 32C V3 2017/05/10 03:21:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2017/05/10 22:45:36
Results did not shock me.  i have been asking for years for someone to show me that mixbus had actually made their music any better. I like mixbus, but I just have never been able to find anything that made porting everything to it worthwhile.  blind tests seem to indicate that a good chunk of the praise is somewhat due to placebo effect.
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