lock clip midi and absolute time

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eliadevico
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Re: elia 2017/09/21 06:02:38 (permalink)
I'm still convinced that this is a bug in the program. In fact, the manual says:
"If a clip’s position is locked, and you change tempo (YOU CHANGE TEMPO!)... its Absolute position (SMPTE) does not move, but its M:B:T position shifts."
Now, if you try, you will see instead that Absolute position move, but M:B:T position does not shifts".
Your process might work, but it is extremely hard-working ... if in a clip there are 10,000 midi events, I can kill myself ...
 
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taccess
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Re: elia 2017/09/21 07:03:45 (permalink)
If I am understanding you, it would be nice to make tempo changes and be able to bounce midi to those changes, but you can't do this at the moment.
There has been quite a bit of discussusion lately about sonar re focusing the rolling updates towards midi enhancements, I hope they do although I am a happy camper regardless.

You can already do this for arpeggiator.

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#32
eliadevico
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Re: elia 2017/09/21 07:06:54 (permalink)
I have to make another clarification. I do not expect the program to ignore the changes in the tempo map (which is absurd). But when the clip is locked (Absolute time) and you change the tempo, the program must recalculate the 'musical' position of the Midi events (the bars, rhythm values, ie M: B: T) without shifting their absolute time position (H : M: S: F).
Logic did this very easily (but Logic no longer works on Windows). Sonar is a great program, but here is a defect, I believe. Anyway, I thank all those who answered me with great kindness.
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azslow3
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Re: elia 2017/09/21 10:10:56 (permalink)
eliadevico
I'm still convinced that this is a bug in the program. In fact, the manual says:
"If a clip’s position is locked, and you change tempo (YOU CHANGE TEMPO!)... its Absolute position (SMPTE) does not move, but its M:B:T position shifts."
Now, if you try, you will see instead that Absolute position move, but M:B:T position does not shifts".

I have just tried in X2 and it works as documented (M:B:T is shifted).
In the whole help page, you see "Position" and "Data". Note that the "Note:" in question mention Position only, not data. And so the documentation is accurate.
 
eliadevico
I have to make another clarification. I do not expect the program to ignore the changes in the tempo map (which is absurd). But when the clip is locked (Absolute time) and you change the tempo, the program must recalculate the 'musical' position of the Midi events (the bars, rhythm values, ie M: B: T) without shifting their absolute time position (H : M: S: F).
Logic did this very easily (but Logic no longer works on Windows). Sonar is a great program, but here is a defect, I believe. Anyway, I thank all those who answered me with great kindness.

Yes, Sonar does not have it. Sonar always keep MIDI information in M:B:T, it also keeps it not in original "MIDI events" but in own "MIDI events", f.e. instead of "Note ON + Note OFF" it keeps the information as "Note + Duration". Not the best (for other reasons),  historical approach. But...
 
Now, that is not a "defect" or "bug". That is not implemented feature. Different programs have different set of implemented features, we can not call a program "buggy" just because it has not implemented something.
 
I agree that is a good feature request, but I guess CW will implement it only after replacing 15+ years old MIDI engine (supporting MIDI VST, dropping strange internal format and organizing flexible MIDI routing). That is a huge work, the engine is bound to many Sonar parts which have to be rewritten then.
 
Normal problem is reversed from your: something is recorded without a click, then correct tempo is detected and somehow should be applied to the project. But MIDI events move with tempo changes and since there is no Absolute time locking, the result is not what people want.
 
For that (reversed) case, I have written a Lua script (can be CAL) to "correct" MIDI events timing. Its use is not simple, it works only once (when initial tempo is constant), there should be exactly one clip per track, started at the beginning and (manually) extended above the end of target time. But when people hit the problem, the project is normally already in that form.
 
While I could write "reversed" script, so taking current fluctuating tempo and pre-calculate M:B:T for constant tempo, it will be too hard to use in your case (bouncing/extending clips, many clicks per track, splitting the result, and in case something was specified wrong, redo the whole procedure). So I do not think that is feasible.
 
I can be wrong, but I think most people are "humanizing" by changing MIDI events (manually, with MFX or loop recording corresponding MIDI VSTs), not by project tempo. I can imaging that if ALL other material except particular clip can be fixed in absolute time (effectively ignoring tempo changes), it is possible to "draw" something for the purpose. But since that is not directly supported in Sonar (all other MIDI tracks should be temporarily Frozen), the only logical conclusion:
At the moment it is too hard to work this way in Sonar.
 

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#34
eliadevico
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Re: elia 2017/09/21 16:43:25 (permalink)
Thanks for the explanation. Therefore, it is not a defect, it is not implemented feature. Evidently I have misread the manual, I misunderstood ...Sorry
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eliadevico
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Re: elia 2017/09/22 05:08:10 (permalink)
Sorry my obstinacy. I make a very simple example.
I record two bars containing each four notes of a quarter.
Metronome 120, then the final position of the clip is 00: 00: 04: 00.
Now, I set the clip properties on H: M: S: F, Absolute time, and lock Midi events.
Then I change the metronome from 120 to 60.
Theoretically, having locked the SMPTE of the Midi events, the final position should still be 00: 00: 04: 00, and I should now have only a bar containing eight notes (eighths). Timing should not change, only the notation.
Instead, the notation stays fixed and the final position is now 00: 00: 08: 00 (that is, my piece is now the slower double).
This seems to me illogical. Or maybe the manual is not accurate.
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azslow3
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Re: elia 2017/09/22 06:22:56 (permalink)
As I wrote, in Sonar:
a) MIDI events are always saved with M:B:T timing, INDEPENDENT from the "Time format" in the clip properties
b) the "clip position" is the beginning of the clip. So mentioned note locking the beginning of the clip, since M:B:T->absolute shift till the last event changes with tempo, the length of the clip also changes. Just the beginning does not (INDEPENDENT from the "Time format", it can be M:B:T and in this case "Start" property will change)
 
So if you start your clip at 2:1:0 (M:B:T), after the same manipulations you will have:
1) notation is still in quarter notes (when events are in M:B:T, the length of notes in notation does not change with tempo)
2) the clip will start at 1:3:0 (M:B:T) since that is the same absolute time in 60bpm as 2:1:0 in 120bpm
3) the clip will end at 2:3:0 since it starts at 1:3:0 and the length is (still) one measure.
 
I repeat, the possibility to lock MIDI events in absolute time will be a nice feature for Sonar. Really no "locking" should be involved, "Time base : Absolute" should be sufficient to achieve that (MIDI events should be saved in absolute time in that case and that will automatically produce desired result). But it is not implemented yet. Without that feature, everything works logical and as described in the manual, just not as you (we) want.
Audio clips and data have all that possibilities, they can be locked in absolute time (normal clips, default behavior) or follow M:B:T and pitch (Groove clips).
 

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