Johnbee58
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Educate Me
I've been buying and downloading several plugins throughout the past several months and I'm confused about why I don't seem to be getting better results. Probably my own ignorance, so I'll run the issue past you. I have ARC 2.5 for room correction. I know I posted something like this not long ago. When I do a mix through it (Correction On) I can get it to sound the way I want it on the monitor speakers. Then, when I render it the product is less than I want it, mainly with an unwanted bass boost. Using this program has caused some confusion for me, but I think I figured it out. When I the correction is ON I'm listening to the room adjustment as if it was perfect. When it's off, it's back to hearing the flaws in my room. I know you're probably thinking "Well, Duh! Yeah, that's what the program is supposed to do!" In fact, the other day, when I listened in the Boom Box virtual setting it sounded better than on the default Flat setting. So it occurred to me (finally) that it's not necessarily supposed to sound good on your studio monitors sans correction. The bass boost is because of the flaw in the room that ARC is taking out of the equation. See, I just turned 63 and it takes longer for stuff like that to sink in. Now, let's talk mastering. I see there are currently several posts on this issue concerning boosting volume to match RMS levels without clipping. I've been battling these demons myself recently. I bought the Waves SSL Buss compressor, which I've been experimenting with. What I've been wondering is, is it OK to use it on individual channels also or is it best just used with the mastering buss? Also, could this solve my RMS volume issues if I use it correctly on the master buss? I have a limiter that came free from d16 called Frontier. Does anybody else here use that? If so, do you find that a useful tool for the RMS volume boost? Lastly, would it be practical to use the SSL buss comp, the Frontier and ARC (in that order) all on the mastering buss at the same time (turning the ARC off before rendering, of course) or would that not serve my purpose well? Please don't suggest buying another plug in, because I refuse to put another penny into this issue. I've spent enough money on this (and other plugins) and my budget is thinning and I'm still not happy with the results I get. Thanks for any answers. John B
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Zargg
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/20 10:52:53
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Hi. I do also have ARC 2.5 and put it last in the chain always. I use the flat setting when using it. I use the SSL comp on both buses and tracks. You don't have to buy any more plugins. You will be fine with what you have. Bapu will disagree Using several/serial compressors are also quite common. Try them in opposite order as well. Limiter at the end. I don't have the d16, but if it sounds good... All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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chris.r
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/20 22:50:56
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Hey John, I think it's good idea to stop the GAS now and put money into some good tutorials on mixing/mastering. You should be able to achieve effects that are more satisfying to you with just the plugins you own, and courses might be helpful to get you there.
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Chregg
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 12:13:08
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tlw
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 12:59:37
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Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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thedukewestern
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 14:24:55
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Be the first one who thinks that you can Sonar Platinum, Windows 7 64 bit - clean install January 2016, Focusrite Pro 40, Outboard Pres, Native Instruments Komplete, Izotope, PSP, Melodyne, Vegetarian
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msmcleod
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 16:05:08
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tlw For a, let’s say “different” point of view on room treatment from someone with a bit of experience....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QdbwKvdX9ik
ARC2 (for me at least) isn't so much about treating the room for reflections, as correcting the frequency response of my speakers within that room. I think we have to appreciate that the majority of us here have one dedicated room for both tracking and mixing, unlike mix engineers who have one room for mixing, and use another for tracking. My home-built studio in my garden was primarily built for tracking and songwriting. It was made on a budget out of wood & rockwool, so although it's good at keeping my noise in and other noise out, it pretty much sucks as a listening room. Before I had ARC2 I'd take my mixes into the house, play them in the living room on a £150 hifi and they'd sound awful. As soon as I got ARC2 and put it on those tracks they sounded just as awful as they did on my hifi - and awful in exactly the same frequencies. Once I'd corrected them with ARC2 enabled, they sounded good not just on my hifi, but anywhere else I played them. If I could mix in the living room, I'd have saved myself £££ on monitor speakers and ARC2... but the wife would go mad!
Mark McLeod Cakewalk by BL | ASUS P8B75-V, Intel I5 3570 16GB RAM Win 10 64 + Win 7 64/32 SSD HD's, Scarlett 18i20 / 6i6 | ASUS ROG GL552VW 16GB RAM Win 10 64 SSD HD's, Scarlett 2i2 | Behringer Truth B2030A / Edirol MA-5A | Mackie MCU + C4 + XT | 2 x BCF2000, Korg NanoKontrol Studio
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Cactus Music
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 16:17:20
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tlw For a, let’s say “different” point of view on room treatment from someone with a bit of experience....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QdbwKvdX9ik
I liked that one. This is why at first I was mixing my backing tracks through my PA system. The closer I could replicate the way they will be played back the less re- mixing I needed to do. After a while I also know what that mix will sound like through my different studio monitors so I rarely need to re mix these days. The bottom line to all this is you need to LEARN your listening environment. I don't think you need to spend money to achieve a great sounding mix. I would just spend time in the studio experimenting with mixes, then take those mixes elsewhere and come up with what works and what doesn't work. As said, we have all the tools we need to make great recording that came free with Splat. You cannot purchase engineering skill, it just takes time and practice. My currant studio set up design wise is a terrible layout, but I have been working there for 10 years and I make it work.
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Johnbee58
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 21:18:57
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OK. Somebody asked if I have room treatment. The answer is YES. Aurelex pads. Mostly, as I said above, I'm happy with ARC having figured out the mysteries and logic behind the program. Even though I have the pads, my room is so pathetically small I need another way to help with my mixes to judge the proper acoustics. Therefore when Correction is ON I can make a perfect mix, compare it with different types of listening environments etc. So, I'm good with that. What I'm not good with is the RMS volume issue and I've given up trying to accomplish anything with that. My mixes are just going to have to be pathetically quiet compared to radio stations, professional CD, etc. I have only so much patience and it's worn thin. I've looked at hundreds of YouTube videos and the ones I've seen of them are made by people who seem to be more interested in putting on a show to impress their friends than they are to actually help people and provide a good explanation on how things like this work. Yesterday, I tried two limiters I have. One is the Blue Tube Brickwall that comes with Cakewalk and the other is the Frontier which is a freebie from the d16 group. With Brickwall, I put it in the Master buss (before ARC) then took the DAW master volume fader down to the point where it never got above 1db. Then I started moving the threshold on Brickwall and determined that -9.8db was where I got the best results. I kept the Release at default (251) and the vu meter for the master buss stayed below 1db. If I moved the threshold beyond -9.8db I started to hear it crush the mix so I kept it there.. I rendered a mix and took it out to my car. I still had to crank the volume up to half as far as it goes to get a satisfactory volume and that still resulted in being practically blown out of my car when I ejected the CD and went back to my local country station. I then tried the same thing with Frontier and -9.8db crushed the mix almost immediately. So, to hell with it. I give up completely. Since I can't find a video on how to use the Blue Tube Brickwall for this purpose on YouTube, or the Frontier I guess I'll never have the luxury of learning how to do this. All of the tutorials have people using Waves L2 or Ozone 5 or some other plugin I'd have to buy. Unless one of you gents (or ladies, if there are any on here) can educate me on how to use what I have for this purposed, I guess I'm screwed on the matter. And, as I said before, I refuse to buy another plugin. Thanks. John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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msmcleod
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 21:37:52
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What you're talking about it here really is mastering, which is a whole new discipline in itself. If I need a quick master, I use the Auto Audio Mastering System : http://www.curioza.com/ There's a free version and a paid version. The only real difference between the free version and the paid one is that the paid one has more options, and gives you a bit more info as to what it did during the process so you can tweak it. I used the free version, then upgraded, but to be honest I didn't need to. The free version does everything I need - like I say, I only need it when I want a quick master and basically want my mix to be louder and fit for CD or sharing. I find the results comparable to LANDR (no worse, no better really), which to be honest is pretty good. Another option is to use BandLab's automatic mastering service.
Mark McLeod Cakewalk by BL | ASUS P8B75-V, Intel I5 3570 16GB RAM Win 10 64 + Win 7 64/32 SSD HD's, Scarlett 18i20 / 6i6 | ASUS ROG GL552VW 16GB RAM Win 10 64 SSD HD's, Scarlett 2i2 | Behringer Truth B2030A / Edirol MA-5A | Mackie MCU + C4 + XT | 2 x BCF2000, Korg NanoKontrol Studio
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Euthymia
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/22 23:33:56
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Johnbee58With Brickwall, I put it in the Master buss (before ARC) then took the DAW master volume fader down to the point where it never got above 1db. Then I started moving the threshold on Brickwall and determined that -9.8db was where I got the best results. I kept the Release at default (251) and the vu meter for the master buss stayed below 1db.
When I started messing with this DAW stuff, I had a miserable time sorting out the differences between "dynamic range," "loudness," "volume," and "level." I've kind of given up trying to figure out what Internet "experts" mean when they use those terms because a lot of the time it seems they misuse them and the ones who do understand them speak so far over my head and assume so much prior knowledge that they may as well be misusing them. It sounds to me like your current issue may be level. My suggestion: Get all your limiters and compressors and all that set up and then crank your Master fader up until the meter is kissing the red and back off a little, do a render (Export), and then see what that sounds like in your car vs. the local country station. Just as a test. Don't worry about the numbers. We're not going to ship this file to RCA, so don't worry if it clips your amplifier or whatever, we're just experimenting. That Master fader controls the level you are getting in your final rendered file and if you have it set low, you can do anything you want with compressors and limiters and gluing egg cartons to your wall and it won't matter. A tool that I use to check my rendered files is the HOFA 4U Meter. It's a freeware combination meter and master fader and panner VST, but it also includes a function where you can drag and drop a file onto its UI and it will tell you what the overall loudness of the file is in LUFS. The usual target is -14. Compare your rendered files to downloaded files from iTunes or wherever using the HOFA plug-in and you can get a better idea whether you are on the right track. Get it for free here: https://hofa-plugins.de/en/plugins/4u/ And IMO, you don't need to spend another dime on mixing and mastering plug-ins. These days there are so many great freeware ones that I believe it's only necessary for hobbyists to spend money for specialized tools like automatic phase aligners. When we have things like the Dead Duck package, which includes just about every mixing tool you can think of, and Cakewalk by BandLab, which comes with most of them in the ProChannel, and excellent ones they are, there is no call to try to spend one's way to sounding good. The path is first learning how to use what we already have. If a racing driver keeps spinning out or stalling the engine, a faster car or different oil treatment is not the answer. If I'm jonesing for a new plug-in to play with, there are so many interesting freeware ones, with new ones coming out every month, that checking KVR every few days satisfies my cravings pretty well. You want a new limiter? My favorite limiter is Unlimited by Sonic Anomaly. It's free. Get it here: https://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins And while you're there, snag Bass Professor II, the bass amp plug-in I use on every song.
-Erik ___________ 3.4 GHz i7-3770, 8G RAM, Win 7 64-bit2X PreSonus Firepods, Event 20/20bas, Alesis Monitor Ones, Alesis Point SevensCakewalk by BandLab, Mixcraft Pro Studio 8.5Warning: if you tell me my issue can be remedied by buying more RAM, an SSD, or a Waves plug-in, I will troll you pitiilessly
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Cactus Music
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/23 03:24:14
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I set the Brickwall limiter to -.04 This catches any overs and so far for me it's seems to work perfectly. When I analyze the song with Wave Lab it always shows Peak level is exactly that. But Peak level and RMS level are two different things. The RMS level can only come up buy more or less pushing your tracks to the max without you "hearing" the compression. You go track by track and maximize each track so it has a nice solid level. Use a compressor to bring up the lows or use automation etc ,, your choice. But each track needs to have balls. I assign parts to busses and there's where I keep an eye on that second level. I'm pushing the level without going over on every buss. Sometimes I use a buss compressor or limiter.
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Euthymia
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/23 23:28:25
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Johnbee58I rendered a mix and took it out to my car. I still had to crank the volume up to half as far as it goes to get a satisfactory volume and that still resulted in being practically blown out of my car when I ejected the CD and went back to my local country station. If the problem is this drastic, where you have to turn the knob up to 12:00 to even hear it okay, and then pop out the CD and the radio station comes blasting out of the speakers, the problem isn't "balls" or which mastering system or any of that, there just plain isn't enough level coming from the Master bus at export time. There's a conceptual issue here that needs to get sorted out, then these other (relative) subtleties can be addressed. First the horse has to be able to stand up, then we can see how its balls are hanging.
-Erik ___________ 3.4 GHz i7-3770, 8G RAM, Win 7 64-bit2X PreSonus Firepods, Event 20/20bas, Alesis Monitor Ones, Alesis Point SevensCakewalk by BandLab, Mixcraft Pro Studio 8.5Warning: if you tell me my issue can be remedied by buying more RAM, an SSD, or a Waves plug-in, I will troll you pitiilessly
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stxx
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/23 23:38:51
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Instead of ARC, I recommend SONARWORKS Studio bundle which includes SYSTEMWIDE which allows ALL your sounds on the computer to get the benefits of the room correction. THIS IS HUGE! SYSTEMWIDE can be purchased standalone as well but I happened to have the bundle with Headphone, speaker, DAW and Systewide support and my mixes have gotten so much better! It also allows you to listen to reference tracks say from a CD or media player etc to run through the same correction so you can REALLY properly analyze your mixes and sound. I also have ARC which I no longer use unfortuantely. Sonarworks is just way better all around
Sonar Platinum, RME UFX, UAD 2, Waves, Soundtoys, Fronteir Alphatrack, X-Touch as Contl Srfc, , Console 1, Sweetwater Creation Station Quad Core Win 8.1, Mackie 824, KRK RP5, AKG 240 MKII, Samson C-Control, Sennheiser, Blue, AKG, RODE, UA, Grace, Focusrite, Audient, Midas, ART Song Portfolio: https://soundcloud.com/allen-lind/sets/oth-short
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Johnbee58
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/24 01:07:42
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Euthymia
Johnbee58I rendered a mix and took it out to my car. I still had to crank the volume up to half as far as it goes to get a satisfactory volume and that still resulted in being practically blown out of my car when I ejected the CD and went back to my local country station. If the problem is this drastic, where you have to turn the knob up to 12:00 to even hear it okay, and then pop out the CD and the radio station comes blasting out of the speakers, the problem isn't "balls" or which mastering system or any of that, there just plain isn't enough level coming from the Master bus at export time. There's a conceptual issue here that needs to get sorted out, then these other (relative) subtleties can be addressed. First the horse has to be able to stand up, then we can see how its balls are hanging.
No, it's not THAT drastic. I have to turn the volume up about half way to get the volume COMPARABLE to the radio station. I hope you don't think that my mixes are so low that they can't be heard at all unless the volume is up half way. I just want that understood. As far as Sonarworks, it's too late. I already spent $200.00 on ARC. John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Cactus Music
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/24 02:34:02
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Have you been following this thread? its the same topic. http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-to-maximize-loudness-without-crossing-the-red-zone-m3770819.aspx As said ( I think) there are hundreds of methods for achieving a mix that will stand side by side with commercial music. Its part of our plan to learn how to do this even if it's just a hobby, It's a good idea to reach this level of skills so our friend can enjoy our music. It sometimes takes detailed work to get there. It the part I enjoy the most about mixing, details. I used to spend a lot of time in Wave Lab on tracks that were very un even and had a lot of almost over peaks. Vocals are certainly the worst offenders. I would manually adjust the peaks and low spots using the Gain tool. You can get very microscopic. Now I just carefully use compression/ limiting at all steps to even them out. I also will use other tools like volume envelopes and applying ( rendering) gain to bits and pieces. And another HUGE thing I do is watch the low end! Low end can easily push your master buss into the red and kill everything else. I use the pro channel hi pass on just about everything. Between 85-100 does the trick.
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thedukewestern
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/24 13:17:29
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Correct your room by turning your monitors down before using a processor. Less volume in the room = less room = less room problems. If you treat your room, treat it strategically. Before you high pass anything, look at the rta to see if it actually would benefit from it in the mix that its in. You should never do anything in your mix as a result of habit. High passing by default creates peaks, and can remove things you actually would benefit from. If you chop 80 hz out of a guitar, it may lose some of the impact you want. Learn to make strategic decisions. A mix is a SYSTEM. Use a reference track (s) in your session Improve how you track - don't be afraid to re-track for technical reasons, it happens more often than not. Don't be afraid to track with a compressor if you find you have peaks on the way in, and your results may be better. If your original waveforms after tracking have tons of clips and peaks, you should be tracking better. You can use clip gain to smooth things out, but by the time you get to the end of an entire session, the magic will certainly be gone. As far as getting a master, check out ian vargos course at the pro audio files, in the box mastering. Study it. The best part is hearing how little and or how much mastering actually affects a good final mix. Dont worry about your final level, it can always be made louder, and or softer by the end user. Check out youtube. They normalize all their audio so there's no big ups and downs between tracks from different eras. You'll notice that... say... enter sandman from the early 90s, now that its the same volume as something from 2010 for example, sounds much better and clearer. If you listened to the same two songs on another format, you would say the newer one sounds better because it is "Louder". Don't fall for that. Learn a little about mastering.
Be the first one who thinks that you can Sonar Platinum, Windows 7 64 bit - clean install January 2016, Focusrite Pro 40, Outboard Pres, Native Instruments Komplete, Izotope, PSP, Melodyne, Vegetarian
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Starise
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/24 14:47:27
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I think ARC 2.5 is a great program. I just updated from 2.0. For those using the older version thinking about upgrading it, you don't need the new mic since 2.5 lets you calibrate with the old mics. I bought the new mic anyways. The calibration procedure has to be right in order for it to work the way it should. I'm almost anal about how I do mine. I make sure I'm sitting in the chair in the same place I sit when I mix and I have the mike exactly at ear level. I also take one measurement with my studio door open and one with it closed because that changes things. Mixing in a smaller space with standing bass waves is pretty common. You will likely see a notch in the low mids on the EQ in ARC. ARC isn't perfect and I suspect it sometimes over compensates in very small ways. I would still never want to go back to mixing without ARC in my space. The challenge is to know the limitations. If ARC is taking slightly too much low mid bass out of your mix, then you will mix a bit too much bass. I compensate for that a bit by going back and forth and using headphones without ARC. It is a process for sure. Once you have it nailed down though your mixes will be much better. Still light years better than working without ARC. On the volume of your mixes- One of the first things you need to do is make sure that what you hear from your master is at the right volume for your room. If using a go between program from your interface manufacturer make sure the levels are set right in it before it goes to the daw. If you are monitoring at levels adjusted too high then all of your mixes will be quiet. I tend to have my levels set at just past 50% when I mix. Check your source material. Did the signal going into the interface go in at a good healthy level? -6 to -8db is a good rule of thumb. Too much gain at the channel stage and there's nothing to play with in terms of gain later on. Bass overloads inputs usually more than the higher frequencies for a given gain. Options are to use side chaining or a dynamic EQ to only reduce the bass when it begins to get out of hand. CbB has a compressor in the PC with side chaining ability. Doing all of these things allows you to drive the total mix up higher at the master bus. Anything below 60hz should be rolled off unless you plan on making one of those thumper tunes that shake the dentures in old peoples mouths. In those mixes the bass kills everything else. On limiting- I'll tell you a little secret. In some genres 0bd is exceeded occasionally. In fact it's a normal thing. The peaks don't overload the inputs into clipping. The more you limit, the less personality a track has. Limiting was originally intended to tame only the worst peaks and bring up volumes slightly. If the gains are already into the stratosphere there isn't anywhere to go and you end up crushing your track. Perceived loudness comes mostly from the mids. The low mids OTOH are usually where the unpleasant "mud" can be found. If you can get those frequencies louder without the bass overpowering the mix you've come a long way towards getting your levels up. Not every channel needs compression. Sometimes you hardly need it at all. Precision frequency notching using a spectrum analyzer can go a long way toward seeing where the mud is and removing it. Then you can move the master level up higher.
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
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Johnbee58
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Re: Educate Me
2018/07/24 23:05:09
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I do very much like the MEMS mic that come with ARC. In fact, I did my last project with it on the vocals ("Over My Shoulder" in Songs section). For a cheap mic I like how it sounds with my voice better than my $500.00 Avantone CV 12. I just might use it for vocals from now on. I'm going to try a demo of Waves L2 Ultramaximizer. If I can't get anywhere with that, I give up on this volume boost thing. JB
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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