Helpful ReplyA Personal Problem

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tlw
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 21:51:27 (permalink)
As a quick PS, being able to subtly shift MIDI notes around in time is another reason for not starting at the beginning of bar 1 on the time-line - a few blank bars allows room not only for the MIDI stuff to sort itself out and sync, but also for shifting notes a few clicks (or more) forward in time.

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#31
Anderton
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/30 18:45:01 (permalink)
Original Pranksta
I just recorded the stream of the Pat Benetar song mentioned in the article, and used Melodyne Essentials and SONAR Platinum's Region FX tempo mapping to take a quick look:
 

 
I don't think Melodyne does an adequate job of accurately mapping tempos, and the results should not be taken at face value.

 
You can see in the article what my results were:
 

 
Remember that it's essential you use the correct algorithm in Melodyne when doing tempo extraction. I forget whether I used Percussion, Melodic, or Universal...also my screen shots were generated using Melodyne 4. That might make a difference.
 
Tempo extraction isn't perfect, but in my experience it's 98% of the way there. It's easy to confirm whether the tempo extraction was successful and accurate - sync a drum machine to tempo, and see if it follows the track or not. In all the examples shown in the article, the drum machine lined up with the song.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#32
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/30 18:51:51 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:47:39


#33
Anderton
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/30 19:30:36 (permalink)
Original Pranksta
I used Universal in my example.



Try the percussion algorithm and see what happens...
 
As to more painless tempo map editing, once a program can shift time without artifacts, we'll be good to go. We're not quite there yet.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#34
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/30 19:48:08 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:47:47


#35
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/30 21:29:18 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:47:57


#36
Anderton
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/30 21:48:07 (permalink)
Hmmm...I can't explain the differences between your results and mine. As mentioned, I confirmed by driving a drum machine with the tempo map and it matched up with the songs. Maybe it has something to do with my using Melodyne 4? I can't try it with Essential because 4 replaces Essential.
 
As you saw in the article, I tried it with a bunch of different songs so I'm at a loss as to why it worked consistently and well, whereas it didn't for you (unless there's a Melodyne version difference). Bear in mind, not everything I tried gave perfect results - but those were the exceptions, not the rule.
 
Then again, the point of the article wasn't about tempo maps, but to demonstrate tempo variations in classic songs. For that purpose, Melodyne worked like a champ. I certainly couldn't think of any other way to show tempo variations graphically with that degree of detail, so I was very pleased it worked.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#37
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/30 21:55:47 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:48:13


#38
mettelus
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/30 22:35:23 (permalink)
These discussions make me wonder sometimes if music hasn't taken a step backwards due to computers. We went from focus on musical content to focus on visual analysis in only a couple of decades (among other issues). It is amazing that music has been made for centuries without computers, yet we seem dependent on them in today's world.

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#39
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/31 00:03:35 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:48:05


#40
Anderton
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/31 03:38:57 (permalink)
mettelus
These discussions make me wonder sometimes if music hasn't taken a step backwards due to computers. We went from focus on musical content to focus on visual analysis in only a couple of decades (among other issues). It is amazing that music has been made for centuries without computers, yet we seem dependent on them in today's world.



I think that could be because of the player/composer dichotomy. Players/bands don't really need computers to do their thing. Composers were always at the mercy of visual analysis...I don't think Beethoven could have done what he did without notation, which was his piano roll view. (He also needed the righteous sample playback engine called a symphony orchestra )
 
As a player, I don't need a computer but as a composer, I do. As a songwriter, playing guitar or keyboard used to be way preferable to using a computer. That changed a few years ago, and now it's actually easier for me to write songs with  a computer. But that's also because I use the computer in a more limited way than when composing.
 
I think the analysis process is ultimately helpful if people read the article I wrote and realize that recording to a click may not be ideal. They may be tempted to record without a click, and it might turn out better. Or not. But at least they'll have had a chance to think about and compare the two. Without seeing how tempo changed in "classic" songs, they might not have been persuaded to check it out.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#41
Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/31 09:31:20 (permalink)
mettelus
These discussions make me wonder sometimes if music hasn't taken a step backwards due to computers. We went from focus on musical content to focus on visual analysis in only a couple of decades (among other issues). It is amazing that music has been made for centuries without computers, yet we seem dependent on them in today's world.

The same can be said of smartphones.
 
I started writing songs in 1977 with an acoustic guitar and a cassette recorder.  I had the musical ability in me to compose a song but I didn't have access to a beat, a bass part keyboards and various embellishments.  In 1984 I bought my first little 4 tracker and a drum machine and a keyboard.  Most of you know where this is going as you've probably gone down similar paths, but what I'm saying is that as technology grows it eventually effects everyone to the point where it makes life easier and better for all of us in probably every way possible.  Had Beethoven had access to a computer, he probably would've used one.  Hans Zimmer has been composing music scores for decades, but he still uses computers now because it makes what he does easier, as does probably every music score composer.  Zimmer eventually scores out to and uses a real orchestra, but in the process of creation he can hear exactly what the finished product will sound like in advance and make corrections or additions if necessary before he gets to the orchestra for the final product.  I don't have access to most of the instruments I use in my music nowadays and couldn't fit something like a drum kit in my little 5'x12' room, but thanks to that technology, I can make it sound like I do, at least to a small degree.
JB

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#42
Moxica
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/08/10 09:28:19 (permalink)
When all instruments are played by one person, I find in my projects at least, they get "inbred" as all my tiny timing errors/habits is being placed on all tracks. 
Once I had a friend replace the bassline. Same line, different person. It gave a totally new feel. No more sag.
 
#43
msmcleod
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/08/10 11:16:51 (permalink)
Moxica
When all instruments are played by one person, I find in my projects at least, they get "inbred" as all my tiny timing errors/habits is being placed on all tracks. 
Once I had a friend replace the bassline. Same line, different person. It gave a totally new feel. No more sag.



Haha - me too!
 
In the past I've always turned my nose up at sample loops / midi loops etc, but actually I'm finding them to be inspirational nowadays.
 
Just replacing your parts with a random bass or drum loop can totally change the feel of a project, and lead things in a totally new direction.
 
I find MIDI loops especially are useful because they're so easy to transpose without loss of quality.
 

Mark McLeod
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